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Discussion Starter #61
FWIW, interestingly, at the end of 2015, Rafa-Djokovic was tied at 23-23, and since then its 6-3 Djokovic with Rafa's 3 wins ONLY on clay... Rafa won (2017 Madrid SF, 2018 Rome SF, and 2019 Rome F); Djokovic won (2016 Doha F, 2016 Indian Wells SF, 2016 Rome QF, 2018 Wimbledon SF, 2019 AO F, and 2020 ATP Cup F)!!
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Conclusion: Djokovic has turned around the rivalry with Rafa AND Rogie since 2016, 5-1 against Rogie AND 6-3 against Rafa, 11-4 overall against the two!!
 

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Djokovic did not have a losing record in the timeframe we are discussing (late-2007, 2008-2009).
Is there any clearer way I can put this?

That was not the period I was discussing at any stage, ever. That is, not for a single moment: nunca. Niemals, nicht ein einziges Mal. Jamais!
 

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Is there any clearer way I can put this?

That was not the period I was discussing at any stage, ever. That is, not for a single moment: nunca. Niemals, nicht ein einziges Mal. Jamais!
And nobody was discussing what you were discussing because you didn't know how to read or have the ability to comprehend what others were saying before you responded.
 

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No. Two possibilities:

a) You meant Djokovic gained the edge at an early stage in the rivalry
b) You meant Djokovic drew exactly even at an early stage in the rivalry

In both cases, you would be wrong.

I trust that's a complete answer.
Your comprehension is frighteningly bad. You are the only person talking about overall H2H when no one else is.
 

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So theSeth, first, Roger hasn't overcome RAFA in their H2H rivalry, but he has definitely turned it around.
With regards to Novak, it was Novak who finally got the overall edge 23-22 vs. Rog in their H2H rivalry in 2016, when the 28+ Djokovic beat 34+ Federer at the Australian Open, just before Rog needed to have surgery on his knee. Since then, Novak has won 4 out of 5 matches from 2018-2020. Novak couldn't reach Roger's level in 2017- mid 2018 for various reasons and they didn't play each other again until Aug 2018.

Curiously enough, in those 4 matches from Aug 2018- Nov 2019, Rog held the edge in total games won 75-70 and points won, 467-448, but lost 7 sets, winning 5, and lost 3 matches, winning one.
They played just the 1 match this year in the AO, and Novak took all 3 sets, 6 more games and 20 more points. So in their last 5 matches 2018-2020, Novak edged Rog in games 89-88, points, 561-560, but took 10 sets vs. Federer's 5, and 4 out of 5 matches. The winning difference? Novak won 6 of 6 tiebreakers.

So, though the margin of play have been very close overall between these two since the 2016 Australian Open, it is not reflected in the victory tally. It seems that the close to 6 year age difference has finally given Novak the winning edge, especially in tiebreakers. Of course, Novak began turning their H2H rivalry around with his amazing metaphorosis in 2011, though it took another 5 years to finally surpass him. What is unknown is what will happen to Novax, Rog, and for that matter, Tennis, from here on out. Personally, I'm not looking further than Tennis having to overcome the coronavirus. :(

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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When you combine match statistics together in the way that you did, it can give us a skewed picture. To give you an example of what I mean, if I combine the Australian Open 2019 final with Nadal's two clay victories over Djokovic in 2018-2019, I can claim Djokovic was ahead in certain statistics. But was he really ahead, or was he just ahead in that one match - Australia? Wimbledon 2019 is really where the difference comes in with those numbers you described. No other match that Federer lost can Federer claim he did better than Djokovic in any of the statistics aforementioned.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
355209
355210


Going by these 2 photos, it appears Rogie has definitely overcome Rafa, lol!! Imagine if Rafa really went the Agassi/Ljubicic route...
 

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You keep looking at the overall H2H, which was not a part of the discussion. Again (as an example): Federer trailed Nalbandian 4-6 at the conclusion of the 2005 season, despite Nalbandian not having an edge over Federer in 2004-2005. By looking at the overall H2H (as you did), you would be missing the point that Federer took away the edge that Nalbandian had over him in 2002-2003, despite still leading the overall H2H over Federer at that point in time. Is this difficult to comprehend?

Djokovic did not have a losing record in the timeframe we are discussing (late-2007, 2008-2009). Did Federer lead the overall H2H still? Yes! But that was not the point of the post. The point was, Federer lost the edge he had from 2006, early-2007, and the results in the timeframe discussed shows that.
The irony here is what could have been had Nalban been more dedicated to the sport & not eaten himself out of shape-def. prevented the Swiss ballerina from some more majors but i suppose once the Serb began maturing & dissecting the Federer ‘mystique’, he, not the S. American, went on to become the main ‘villain’ for the biased media & tennis world at large.
 

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All bets are off with the long enforced break.

I do think Fed has one lights out win in him against Djokovic at Wimbledon (would obviously have to come in 2021). It should've happened last summer after all.

Certainly can't see him beating Djokovic on hard court in a slam, he's had more than enough chances over last decade.
 

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Rogie overcame Rafa end of 2015/early 2017 and since on non-clay surfaces, he's like 6-0 since end of 2015 (2015 Basel, 2017 AO, 2017 IW, 2017 Miami, 2017 Shanghai, and 2019 W)... Also Rogie won the South African exhibition too!!

Now, can he do likewise with Djokovic, can he overcome him too??

Your thoughts??
He didn't overcome him, Nadal just lost the edge when it come to his physic which was a major factor in his game, and his matches against Federer.
 

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He's gonna run out of time, so no, he will not solve the Novak puzzle.
If he wants one last Slam, esp another Wimbledon, he will just have to play hoping to avoid him.
 

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It's interesting how Federer was able to overcome Murray and Nadal (to a lesser extent), but not Djokovic, so clearly age isn't the excuse (unless Djokovic carries a black hole in his pocket). Murray seemed like the antithesis of Federer's game (more so than Nadal, IMO). Incredible defense, great slice, and great court awareness. I always figured that Murray would lead the H2H but was surprised that Federer gained the upper hand.
 

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It's interesting how Federer was able to overcome Murray and Nadal (to a lesser extent), but not Djokovic, so clearly age isn't the excuse (unless Djokovic carries a black hole in his pocket). Murray seemed like the antithesis of Federer's game (more so than Nadal, IMO). Incredible defense, great slice, and great court awareness. I always figured that Murray would lead the H2H but was surprised that Federer gained the upper hand.
Murray led Federer in the H2H until 2014. The racket change worked wonders for Federer. It helped him overcome Nadal and Murray, but not his archenemy. Djokovic has different ways to beat Federer and can counter what he throws at him. IMO, Federer's only real chance is to hope Djokovic is not playing well (like ATP Finals) and to serve out of his mind on some of the fastest of courts at places like Dubai.
 

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I'm surprised to see a question like this one.
It's over for Roger.
Seriously - if he continues to play after we restart (which I have serious doubts about) - he won't be able to beat anyone in the top 100 anymore.
I expected him to retire this year - but corona seems to have delayed that. But - there's ZERO chance he'll play 2021.
He might try - but it'll be a rude awakening.
 
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