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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I just wanted to provide some statistics that compare amount of breaks per set by the top dogs on grass in the 90s and 00s, beeing a good grasscourt player is after all mostly about beeing able to hold your serve. It started of when I wanted to see how succesfull Nadal really was on serve compared to big servers on grass, I always had the point of view that Nadal's serve really is incredible difficult to break on grasscourts so I wanted to see how he compares to great grasscourters that are percieved to have greater service games than him, anyway here are the results for those who love statistics(I only count tournaments were they got to semifinals, easier to count and takes into consideration only their peak):

This is from 91 onward because no information was given on dates before that:

1.Sampras 8 times past semifinal and broken 44 times in 182 sets 0.24 breaks per set

2.Federer 8 finals and broken 50 times in 179 sets 0.28 breaks per set

3.Goran Ivanisevic 5 times past semifinal broken 45 times in 126 sets, broken 0.36 times per set

4.Roddick 4 times past semifinal broken 38 times in 97 sets, broken 0.39 times per set

5.Nadal 5 finals, broken 50 times in 125 sets, broken 0.4 times per set

6.Becker past semifinal 4 times, broken 45 times in 95 sets, broken 0.47 times per set

7.Agassi past semifinal 5 times broken 59 times in 113 sets broken 0.52 times per set

8.Rafter past semifinal 3 times broken 39 times in 72 sets, broken 0.54 times per set

9.Djokovic past semifinal 4 times broken 47 times in 83 sets, broken 0.57 times per set


As I also expected Djokovic would be way below the rest in the list, but didnt expect him to be so bad, I hold on to the opinion that Djokovic's Wimbledon title was one hell of a fluke. Nadal is a great grasscourter, I really belive faster grasscourts wouldnt change that and these stats I think shows how great Nadal's serve-forehand combo is on grasscourts, fast grasscourts would only make his serve more lethal.

Becker must be excused because his best years in the late 80s isnt included.
 
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Great stats :hatoff:. Even though Nadal is not a natural lefty most players still find his serve awkward to return. Being different certainly never hurts, look at Santoro :worship:. I doubt Nadal would be as successful in the 90's due to the lower bounce. I don't think he is the greatest of returners on grass. His block return is not the best in my opinion. It is tough comparing eras but it sure is fun.
 

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Very well done :yeah:

You can also include Pat Rafter, he has 2 finals and 1 SF if I remember correctly.
 

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Pete's stats are great. But fed still had an amazing stat given that those grass courts were much much slower that he played on 2003-2011 than compared to sampras. It's not crazy to think fed's stat would be even lower than sampras's had he played on those faster courts.
 

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What the hell does this prove? Nole served terribly in 2010 so it's no surprise that he has been broken the most.
 

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Interesting to compare Federer and Sampras and their grass court games since the two are so far ahead all others
 

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nice seeing these stats .They reinforced my opinion that Nadal is very tough to break on serve
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
What the hell does this prove? Nole served terribly in 2010 so it's no surprise that he has been broken the most.
"Super Djokovic" in 2011 was broken 12 times, which compares to Nadal beeing broken 8 times 2006, 2008 and 2010 or Federer beeing broken at most 8 times in 2003 and avarage of 6 times in all his final runs, Sampras also beeing broken at most 8 times an avarage of 5.5 times per final run.

If we look at Djokovic's 3 years we have his super year giving him 12 breaks and his 2 "normal" years having him beeing broken 14 and 18 times. In 2009 QF he is broken 11 times in 17 sets which is 0.65 times per set.

I dont think statistics lie here, Djokovic is consistent in beeing broken alot of times on grasscourts, even his best year had more breaks than almost any past champion in Wimbledon, see:

2011: 12
2010: 8
2009: 5
2008:8
2007:7
2006:4
2005:7
2004:6
2003:8

Federer has been broken 0.66 times per set in his 5 RG final runs, gives you an idea of how breakable Djokovic is on grasscourts, his serve is not very effective at all on this surface.
 

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^^So what? :) If I remember correctly, in the final match Djokovic was broken 0 times in the 1st, 2nd and 4th set - i.e. he held when it mattered most.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
^^So what? :) If I remember correctly, in the final match Djokovic was broken 0 times in the 1st, 2nd and 4th set - i.e. he held when it mattered most.
Well, he was broken in the 4th set but Nadal is a good matchup for him. I think a good returner like Murray would break his serve 5 times in 4 sets or something like that, Federer would do similar kind of damage to Djokovic's serve.
 

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Well, he was broken in the 4th set but Nadal is a good matchup for him. I think a good returner like Murray would break his serve 5 times in 4 sets or something like that, Federer would do similar kind of damage to Djokovic's serve.
Djokovic is also a good returner, so he could do similar or even bigger damage. Anyway, in the end all it matters is who won, not who had more breaks :shrug:
 

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Djokovic is also a good returner, so he could do similar or even bigger damage. Anyway, in the end all it matters is who won, not who had more breaks :shrug:
Why so defensive? The statistics aren't a knock on Djokovic. It just illustrates one aspect of the game.
 

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Well, if this is not a knock, I don't know what is:

I hold on to the opinion that Djokovic's Wimbledon title was one hell of a fluke. Nadal is a great grasscourter, I really belive faster grasscourts wouldnt change that and these stats I think shows how great Nadal's serve-forehand combo is on grasscourts, fast grasscourts would only make his serve more lethal.
Nadal's 1st serve was close to 80%, he made only 15 UEs, and still was almost routined in the first two sets and the second part of the 4th. Nothing fluke about that, it was a rock-solid win.
 

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While the OP's opinion was not a balanced one, sure, fact remains djokovic's serve stats at Wimbledon are horrible (compared to the other past winners).

Nothing on Djokovic or any other part of his game, but his serve stats at Wimbledon are horrible. That's the only thing the stats are saying and I don't know why you are getting so defensive over it.

It's just like calling Federer's break point conversion/challenge success rate atrocious and Murray's second serve terrible.

(I would have put some terrible Nadal stat in here but I can't think of any off the top of my head, perhaps just fewer service winners/Aces)
 

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Well, if this is not a knock, I don't know what is:



Nadal's 1st serve was close to 80%, he made only 15 UEs, and still was almost routined in the first two sets and the second part of the 4th. Nothing fluke about that, it was a rock-solid win.
While Nadal has a high 1st serve % in Wimbledon, his 1st serve isn't actually that good. I would still take Djokovic's 1st serve if only it was more consistent.
 

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While the OP's opinion was not a balanced one, sure, fact remains djokovic's serve stats at Wimbledon are horrible (compared to the other past winners).

Nothing on Djokovic or any other part of his game, but his serve stats at Wimbledon are horrible. That's the only thing the stats are saying and I don't know why you are getting so defensive over it.

It's just like calling Federer's break point conversion/challenge success rate atrocious and Murray's second serve terrible.

(I would have put some terrible Nadal stat in here but I can't think of any off the top of my head, perhaps just fewer service winners/Aces)
Federer's break point conversion probably seems bad since there are vivid memories of not doing well against nadal. Overall, his conversion is 41%, while the record is 46%, so I wouldn't call that atrocious.
 

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Well, if this is not a knock, I don't know what is
Oh I don't know. That Djokovic was able to win the Wimbledon title despite having a weakness in this one aspect illustrates how other areas of his game must have been exceptional. •• There's no one player in history that excels at everything •• If it makes you feel better, measure the first serve speeds of every Wimbledon champion and you'll see Nadal is pretty low in that totem pole – does it matter? Not really – but that Nadal has a slower first serve than most elite players is a fact.

No need to be so defensive when someone points an area where your hero isn't king.
 

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I've never claimed that his serve is great - on the contrary, it's probably the most face-palm inducing part of his game if you ask me. The only thing I had problem with is calling his win some kind of fluke of epic proportions as OP suggested - serve or no serve he was pretty convincing both in semis and finals. :)
 
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