Brad Gilbert: Darkhorses don't win the USO.

I have one word for Gilbert -- Orantes

Anyway, wasn't Rafter a dark horse the first time he won the USO?

Dirk said:

Pat and Cliff tried to argue with him by saying that Hewitt wasn't a favorite going into the USO 2001 by Brad came back with "He was seeded number 3 at that Open". They brought up Rafter who was seeded 13 at the 97 USO, but Brad retort with "Pat was in the finals of many of the USO lead up events". I think Brad is right on this statement. Can anyone find evidence to the contrary?

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http://www.atptennis.com/en/players...?year=2002&query=Singles&player=S402&x=23&y=5

Check out Sampras' USO win in 2002. His ATP race ranking was 32 and he hadn't won a hardcourt title going into the event. Everyone was talking retirement time for Pete. Doesn't that make him a darkhorse? Or am I missing something here?

Noooooooooooo, not another Brad Gilbert thread, please

Although Sampras had 13 Slams under his belt in 2002, he didn't win any tournament since Wimbledon 2000. I considered he's a dark horse that year.

Rafter in 97
well someone had to win that one
look at the semifinalists

Never thought about the Pete 02 year. That could be debatable. Star read my first post about Rafter being mentioned. I think that could go either way because he was seeded 13 (which would make him a darkhorse) yet had a really great summer that year so that is a tough call but I agree with Brad on that one. Orantes, didn't he win lots of clay (among other surfaces) events so was he really a darkhorse?

TheBoiledEgg said:

Rafter in 97
well someone had to win that one
look at the semifinalists

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Gregers isn't that bad Eggy.

star said:

I have one word for Gilbert -- Orantes

Anyway, wasn't Rafter a dark horse the first time he won the USO?

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http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/playerprofiles/Titles/default.asp?playernumber=O017

Orantes won lots of title in 75 including clay events in Hamburg and Monte Carlo so he had to be seeded high. He also won hardcourt events that year too. I can't imagine him not being seeded in the top five going into that USO.

13th seed is a "dark horse"? What y'all smokin?

TheBoiledEgg said:

Rafter in 97
well someone had to win that one
look at the semifinalists

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Michael was just completely tired from his quarterfinal win over Marcelo. :angel:

star said:

I have one word for Gilbert -- Orantes

Anyway, wasn't Rafter a dark horse the first time he won the USO?

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When Orantes won the US Open, it was on clay. And he won other large clay events earlier that year, I believe.

Rafter in '97 was probably the last winner of the US Open who could be considered a dark horse. It doesn't happen much in New York.

Whistleway said:

13th seed is a "dark horse"? What y'all smokin?

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I'd say so.

Although Sampras had 13 Slams under his belt in 2002, he didn't win any tournament since Wimbledon 2000. I considered he's a dark horse that year.

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Sampras did not play well all year but nobody could be surprised when Pete started rolling so he wasn't a TRUE darkhorse. Sampras in 1990, however, is a different story. He was a true darkhorse then.

Orantes was the #3 seed when he won it and was a darkhorse only in the sense that Connors was unstoppable that year. He really roughed Connors up in the final

Newcombe in 1973 was the 10th seed.

I think Manuel Orantes was the biggest dark horse to win the USO.

However, when Gilbert says Rafter was in "many" of the finals in the lead up events, that's a little misleading. Rafter lost second round in Los Angeles, lost second round in Canada, lost third round in Cincy, and then lost in the finals of New Haven and Long Island to Moya and Kafelnikov respectively. I don't think that record made Rafter a favorite going into the USO. And remember, McEnroe scoffed at Rafter's win and called him a "one slam wonder."

Leo said:

When Orantes won the US Open, it was on clay. And he won other large clay events earlier that year, I believe.

Rafter in '97 was probably the last winner of the US Open who could be considered a dark horse. It doesn't happen much in New York.

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It was green clay. But I looked him up, and all I could find was that he lost first round at Roland Garros that year and played a few Davis Cup matches.

But anyway, I remember that USO. I remember watching the final. It was a fantastic match. I remember everyone thinking before the match was played that Orantes had no chance. He had played 5 sets late into the night the day before the final. Connors had a fairly easy afternoon match and was rested and eager.

As I recall it at the time, everyone thought that Orantes was a long shot to win the tournament.

star said:

It was green clay. But I looked him up, and all I could find was that he lost first round at Roland Garros that year and played a few Davis Cup matches.

But anyway, I remember that USO. I remember watching the final. It was a fantastic match. I remember everyone thinking before the match was played that Orantes had no chance. He had played 5 sets late into the night the day before the final. Connors had a fairly easy afternoon match and was rested and eager.

As I recall it at the time, everyone thought that Orantes was a long shot to win the tournament.

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I didn't know much about Orantes either so I looked him up on tenniscorner: http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=M&action=players&playerid=ORM002

Apparently he did lose in the 1st round of Roland Garros that year but made the finals the year before. And he did win both Monte Carlo and Hamburg the same year as the US Open (1975). In 1972, he won both Roma and Hamburg.

Interestingly, he reached the quarters of the Australian Open in 1968 - his first ever Slam on the pro level - but he never bothered playing there again in his career. He also kind of gave up on Wimbledon after reaching the semis in 1972. After his solo Slam victory, he made 4 other GS quarterfinals (2 in Paris, 2 in New York) but never made a semifinal again.

Would Safin in 2000 be considered a dark horse?

What was he seeded?

Clara Bow said:

Would Safin in 2000 be considered a dark horse?

What was he seeded?

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For sure! He was seeded sixth, I think? But he was a tournament pick for many after beating Sampras in a very close TMS Canada final not long before. Plus he had reached the quarters of the French earlier in the year and won a bunch of titles.

Thanks Leo! 1999 and 2000 were days of wine and roses with me and my friends so I didn't follow the lead in tournaments that much those years.