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Discussion Starter #1
This is maybe the most common misconception I've been reading the last 2 weeks or so and one of the biggest misconception on MTF generally.

I'm not going to start a heated discussion, just going to show 2 stats.

2 biggest servers (don't say Groth is better, for the love of God) in the history of tennis and their stats at Wimbledon:

Karlovic- 11 wins, 10 losses.

Isner- 5 wins, 6 losses. Notice the negative score. His worst Slam.

I'm thinking Karlovic is going out in R2 vs Dolgopolov.

And Isner might be a part of the "shocking result" of R2 if he gets eliminated by a really good, inform grass player, Ebden, which would be no surprise to me.
 

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Both are gigantic and don't have enough stamina to last multiple 5 setters.

If wimby was bo3 they would go much further...
 

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You had me until you called Ebden a 'good player'...

It's true though, Isner and Karlovic's serves are so incredible they'll hold easily on any surface when they're playing well, grass is only a small advantage in that regard. And that small advantage is more than counterbalanced by the fact they get even less chances of doing anything on return and in rallies.
 

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Didn't Roddick once said, that serve is the most overrated shot on grass? He might be true. movement is the most important element on grass
 

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The problem is that guys like Isner and Karlovic are going to win about 90% of their service games on whatever surface they play on. Then, because grass enhances the serve of the other player, plus the fact that big servers usually = tall, which = poor movement, means that they are less likely to get chances on return.

Isner especially has a problem with low bounces because his FH is actually a nice weapon if he is able to get set and strike in his hitting zone. With the faster pace and low bouncing, most of the time he is taking them at the knees and can't do much with it.
 

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Well the thing is the best servers are usually very tall which is not great on grass since the bounce is very low. Isner can be quite decent from the baseline on slow HC or even clay and still hold his serve with ease on grass he is all about the serve. So basically their only chance to win a set is in a TB so every match turns into a TB-shootout and it's not easy to win too many of those in a row.

Also Isner got an amazing kick serve which might actually be more effective on clay / slow HC.
 

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Well bing servers are generally tall and that low bounce just kills them. Footwork and ability to adjust to weird bounces are important too.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You had me until you called Ebden a 'good player'...

It's true though, Isner and Karlovic's serves are so incredible they'll hold easily on any surface when they're playing well, grass is only a small advantage in that regard. And that small advantage is more than counterbalanced by the fact they get even less chances of doing anything on return and in rallies.
Good grass player. Good enough to possibly upset Isner this year and get into his first GS R3 in his career and his first R2 in Wimbledon after 3 bad R1 draws.
 

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Good grass player. Good enough to possibly upset Isner this year and get into his first GS R3 in his career and his first R2 in Wimbledon after 3 bad R1 draws.
I doubt it. I expect Isner to lose R3 to Cilic, who's a bad matchup for him in general and should be even more so on grass. In fact, I'm expecting Cilic to make QF from this quarter, on grass he should beat Nishikori too.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I doubt it. I expect Isner to lose R3 to Cilic, who's a bad matchup for him in general and should be even more so on grass. In fact, I'm expecting Cilic to make QF from this quarter, on grass he should beat Nishikori too.
Actually, that's the most likely scenario imo too. Isner and then Nishikori seem like a very tricky draw for Cilic, but if he has to face those two in a row, Wimbledon is definitely the place he wants to do it. And then another good 5 set loss vs Djokovic in the QF unfortunately.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Big tall servers who come forward have an advantage, big tall servers who stay back do not.
With the exception of Berdych.

I would especially like to mention him because he has that very unique, interesting low forehand shot. When the return falls very close to him, and the ball bounces low and awkwardly, he does that weird forehand where he hits it with solid power, a lot of spin. You can see him jumping during that shot. It's really interesting.

Does someone have a video of that shot? I think it's one thing that makes him really dangerous on grass.
 

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2 biggest servers (don't say Groth is better, for the love of God) in the history of tennis and their stats at Wimbledon:

Karlovic- 11 wins, 10 losses.

Isner- 5 wins, 6 losses. Notice the negative score. His worst Slam.
karlovic and isner lack movement, speed, and have awful ros's.
 

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Big tall servers who come forward have an advantage, big tall servers who stay back do not.
But equally they move very slowly normally, inparticular on grass which famously you need good footwork on and due to the slower movement they can't get to the net quick enough, this is one of Ivo's major issues he is normally very good at the net but if someone is returning well he struggles to get to the net to cut off the angles. Yes having a big serve is a large advantage but equally the height that gives you the serve is a large hindrance on grass.
 

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The problem is that guys like Isner and Karlovic are going to win about 90% of their service games on whatever surface they play on. Then, because grass enhances the serve of the other player, plus the fact that big servers usually = tall, which = poor movement, means that they are less likely to get chances on return.
well said
 

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With the exception of Berdych.

I would especially like to mention him because he has that very unique, interesting low forehand shot. When the return falls very close to him, and the ball bounces low and awkwardly, he does that weird forehand where he hits it with solid power, a lot of spin. You can see him jumping during that shot. It's really interesting.

Does someone have a video of that shot? I think it's one thing that makes him really dangerous on grass.
Berdych is playing the classic Czech style, they play a lot on fast indoor courts in the Czech republic I think and therefore their game is very well suited for fast courts because they all hit so flat. They are all playing the same way, men and women.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Berdych is playing the classic Czech style, they play a lot on fast indoor courts in the Czech republic I think and therefore their game is very well suited for fast courts because they all hit so flat. They are all playing the same way, men and women.
I haven't thought about it before, but yes, I can see it now.

The guys look pretty much the same physically aswell. Flat hitting giants. Funny how that actually makes them all most effective on clay.
Vesely and Rosol play best on clay, and even Berdych said his favorite surface is clay.
 

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Well, when you look at the most successful Wimbledon champions - Sampras, Fed, Becker, etc, they are all so much more than just a big serve. Otoh, typical big servers today have a great serve and not much else.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I guess I accidently made a jinx or counterjinx thread?

Karlovic, Isner and Groth in R3

Neither one really expected to make R4. Maybe Karlovic vs Tsonga or Isner vs Cilic.
 
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