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Where will Djokovic finish?

  • 357-368, Djokovic will surpass Gonzales and Renshaw but not Tilden

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Almost always had to play vs 2 of Rosewall/Gonzales/Hoad to win them. No free rides here

Plus only 3 chances a year to win slams instead of 4
We will have to agree to disagree on this. The big 3 had to win 7 Bo5 matches to win all of their slams and routinely had to beat 2 of the other players between Nadal, Djokovic, Federer and Murray and the big 3 specifically had to beat at least 1 of the other big three for their titles. That was on top of having to endure 7 Bo5s as well.

Also yes there was only 3 pro slams, but 2 of those 3 were on grass and that gave a great grass player like Laver a distinct advantage for racking up slams. Imagine how many slams Rafa would have with 2 clay slams, or Djokovic and Federer would have with multiple grass slams.
 

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It was what it was because of the pro/am separation at the time. The pros (best players) were banned from the traditional slams where 7 matches were played by the lower quality amateurs. When the pros in pro slams played quarters, semis, and finals they were playing the best players in the world in those stages. It is similar to today, without the earlier rounds. Today, the early rounds (R128, R64) are full of qualifiers, wild cards and low ranked players. The R32 are 17-32 ranked players at best, who. due to their inconsistency, are many times bested by a non-seeded player. The R16 is where much of the wheat is separated from the chaff. No matter the ranking, the in form players of quality tend to move on, the others are left carrying their bags out of the tournament. Then the game truly begins in the quarters.

Should Emerson's amateur slams be valued higher than Laver's, or Rosewall's pro slams, because Emerson played 7 matches to Laver's or Rosewall's 3? For years, Laver and other pros could play only 3 pro slams per year. Anyway, I believe each stand on their own merits and there was no choice, once one decided to turn pro.

We cannot compare everything to today, but I still think the pro slams were the pro majors and it is more fair for them to be counted on an equal basis.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 
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Discussion Starter #63
Hate to be that guy who starts a controversy, but I am already seeing flaws in this COVID protected system. A player should forfeit points from a 2019 tournament once they play in the 2020 edition. The max rule makes rankings semi frozen. Sure, keep 2019 points if they want to skip, but once skin is in the game, it should matter.

I am actually debating this with the ATP too, 2020 calendar has been refilled, players are just taking advantage of it to make rankings count even more than they should. Risk has been taken out of the equation in the form of health risk > ranking risk.

Novak's weeks beyond 282 are asterisked and unfortunately for him, it will be viewed as that. He can solve this controversy with an extra set of 22 weeks to his tally. Say, if he gets 400, he will be undisputed all time.
We can definitely argue if Thiem or Nadal ends up with more 2020 points than Djoko, that would surely be a discussion

We will have to agree to disagree on this. The big 3 had to win 7 Bo5 matches to win all of their slams and routinely had to beat 2 of the other players between Nadal, Djokovic, Federer and Murray and the big 3 specifically had to beat at least 1 of the other big three for their titles. That was on top of having to endure 7 Bo5s as well.

Also yes there was only 3 pro slams, but 2 of those 3 were on grass and that gave a great grass player like Laver a distinct advantage for racking up slams. Imagine how many slams Rafa would have with 2 clay slams, or Djokovic and Federer would have with multiple grass slams.
Laver won slams on grass, clay, and wood, and many other big championships on hard and indoor. His resume is damn near flawless

Even with grass all over, every grass court was different. Different bounce, height, climate conditions and so on
 

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Hate to be that guy who starts a controversy, but I am already seeing flaws in this COVID protected system. A player should forfeit points from a 2019 tournament once they play in the 2020 edition. The max rule makes rankings semi frozen. Sure, keep 2019 points if they want to skip, but once skin is in the game, it should matter.

I am actually debating this with the ATP too, 2020 calendar has been refilled, players are just taking advantage of it to make rankings count even more than they should. Risk has been taken out of the equation in the form of health risk > ranking risk.

Novak's weeks beyond 282 are asterisked and unfortunately for him, it will be viewed as that. He can solve this controversy with an extra set of 22 weeks to his tally. Say, if he gets 400, he will be undisputed all time.
So in your personal view, he needs 333 to really surpass Federer?
 

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Just a few months more and MTF trolls will be in shambles.
 
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Discussion Starter #67 (Edited)
A big win, 400 more points

Best way to keep #1 is amass as much points as possible in times where you seem "safe"

All he must do now is make F of RG, even if he loses to Nadal, he locks up YE #1. Thiem is too far behind even if he runs the table rest of the season

However according to this page- 2020 ATP Finals - Wikipedia

There still may be some controversy brewing if Thiem can surpass Djoker in 2020 points. Even more controversy if the amount Thiem wins by is less than the amount of points Djokovic lost in USO from his DQ (180 points)

Of course, YE #1 is not enough. Losing RG to Nadal again is not enough. Not winning YEC again is not enough. Djokovic has 83 more weeks he needs at #1 to break Tilden's record. He still has 4 more slams to pass Fed in slams. (though Rosewall has 23 slams, he never won Wimbledon and has far fewer weeks at #1). So Djokovic still has a lot to do

Now we wait for RG draw. Thiem's placement is key to both the slam race and #1 race. Of course, if Djokovic beats Thiem and Nadal back to back, he's clearly #1, gets back on pace for 21, and gets his 2nd slam on all surfaces

Should Nadal win, he keeps an outside chance on #1 in the race but still very difficult for Rafa to finish #1, although not mathematically impossible especially if he decides to vulture Vienna (unlikely)

If Thiem wins RG, he is in with a very good shot to surpass Novak in 2020 alone points, where the above mentioned controversy may come into play
 

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Discussion Starter #69
Age of each GOAT candidate upon 287th week at #1

Djokovic Sept 21 2020, Age 33y4m
Tilden- Mar 1 1926, Age 33y1m
Laver- Aug 10 1970, Age 32y0m
Federer- July 9 2012, Age 30y11m
Gonzales- March 2, 1959, Age 30y10m
Renshaw- Jan 3 1887, Age 26y0m

So Djokovic is the oldest #1 upon 287th week. But the road to 369 is 83 weeks away
 

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Discussion Starter #70
Age upon last week at #1

Tilden- June 27, 1931, Age 39y4m (wow)
Federer (so far)- June 18, 2018, Age 36y10m
Djokovic (so far)- Sept 21 2020, Age 33y4m
Laver- Sept 13, 1971, Age 33y1m
Gonzales- June 27, 1960, Age 32y1m
Renshaw- June 30, 1890, Age 29y5m (wow)

So Djokovic is already older than Renshaw, Gonzales, and Laver were upon their final weeks at #1. Interesting that they all lost it around Wimbledon time, except Laver who was after USO. That tends to be the time the #1 changes hands
 

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Discussion Starter #71
All time oldest #1

Arthur Gore- Oct 18 1909, Age 41y9m

Also has the oldest slam finalist run, Wimbledon 1912, Age 44y6m
 

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Age upon last week at #1

Tilden- June 27, 1931, Age 39y4m (wow)
Federer (so far)- June 18, 2018, Age 36y10m

Nadal (so far) - Jan 20, 2020, Age 33y7m

Djokovic (so far)- Sept 21 2020, Age 33y4m
Laver- Sept 13, 1971, Age 33y1m
Gonzales- June 27, 1960, Age 32y1m
Renshaw- June 30, 1890, Age 29y5m (wow)

So Djokovic is already older than Renshaw, Gonzales, and Laver were upon their final weeks at #1. Interesting that they all lost it around Wimbledon time, except Laver who was after USO. That tends to be the time the #1 changes hands
Corrected for truth, my friend... ;)

Respectfully,
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ATPTour.com announced that Djokovic needs to stay atop the World Rankings until March 8th 2021 to pass Federer's 310 Weeks.
 
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