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Where will Djokovic finish?

  • 357-368, Djokovic will surpass Gonzales and Renshaw but not Tilden

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Discussion Starter #21

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You know it's true Johnny, even you would wipe the court with Tilden.
Tilden was the GOAT for much of tennis history. His serve and knowledge of the game blows any modern player out the water. Read his three books on the game and you'd know that. Tilden would have Sampras numbers or so if he was born in 1970 with modern training, nutrition, and equipment. I don't think Tilden is the GOAT with his only 14 slams and none on wood, but he does have this record
 

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Tilden was the GOAT for much of tennis history. His serve and knowledge of the game blows any modern player out the water. Read his three books on the game and you'd know that. Tilden would have Sampras numbers or so if he was born in 1970 with modern training, nutrition, and equipment. I don't think Tilden is the GOAT with his only 14 slams and none on wood, but he does have this record
I know all that, he was the GOAT of those years one century ago when Tennis was something else. Same rules but a different sport. He wouldn't stands a chance with a today pro of Challenger, even Futures level.
 

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I can honestly see Djokovic getting 400+ weeks at world no1.
It is not certain he'll make it to 310, let alone almost two full seasons more above it (he has already lost 2-3 close y.e. no.1 races to Nadal and Murray after his big advantage, then came Covid-19), and even if he made it by the next spring, he could change his priorities soon after, trying to stay as fresh, fit & injury free for the slams only, instead of chasing ranking points, like e.g. Stan the man since 2013, Murray in 2012-'14 period, Sampras in his last 4-5 seasons etc.
 

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Everybody knows that Djoker's priorities are the Slams, Masters 1000 and WTF for some while now.

He rarely enters ATP500&250's unlike the big vulture 40-15er that tries to pad his stats with those small fish tournaments.

By doing so he manages his schedule excellent and starts every tournament he enters as the favourite. He rarely loses before the SF's and always manages to win a slam or two and a couple of Masters and almost always goes far at the WTF's. That's the reason why he's going to break the 40-15er record in the first quarter of 2021 tie Sampras' YE#1 record at the end of this year. Every week extra after that is going to soldify that the record probably will survive our lifetime .

It wouldn't surprise me at all that he also shatters the pre-open era record and goes through the elusive 400 mark. But first the open era record and tomorrow the stand alone Masters1000 record.
 
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Discussion Starter #28
It is not certain he'll make it to 310, let alone almost two full seasons more above it (he has already lost 2-3 close y.e. no.1 races to Nadal and Murray after his big advantage, then came Covid-19), and even if he made it by the next spring, he could change his priorities soon after, trying to stay as fresh, fit & injury free for the slams only, instead of chasing ranking points, like e.g. Stan the man since 2013, Murray in 2012-'14 period, Sampras in his last 4-5 seasons etc.
Well even Sampras in his last seasons was scoring weeks at #1 here and there. Pete was never the wire to wire type, he would routinely lose weeks through the year but always finish #1

Djokovic could adopt a similar mindset, especially if he is in a situation where he already has the Open Era weeks record while still being behind in the slam count

But it all comes together really. In the pursuit of winning 20 or 21, he will inevitably have enough points for #1. This is a very important time period where Nadal is rusty, Fed is an unknown, Thiem just had his major breakthrough and I expect a small slump after myself but we will see if he just takes off now.

So Djoker has this in between period where Fedal are part time players and the younger ones are not ready. Whether or not he can hold off the pack before he can break all the records remains to be seen

Everybody knows that Djoker's priorities are the Slams, Masters 1000 and WTF for some while now.

He rarely enters ATP500&250's unlike the big vulture 40-15er that tries to pad his stats with those small fish tournaments.

By doing so he manages his schedule excellent and starts every tournament he enters as the favourite. He rarely loses before the SF's and always manages to win a slam or two and a couple of Masters and almost always goes far at the WTF's. That's the reason why he's going to break the 40-15er record in the first quarter of 2021 tie Sampras' YE#1 record at the end of this year. Every week extra after that is going to soldify that the record probably will survive our lifetime .

It wouldn't surprise me at all that he also shatters the pre-open era record and goes through the elusive 400 mark. But first the open era record and tomorrow the stand alone Masters1000 record.
Yes so long as he keeps making SF and F and winning a lot, he does not have to vulture like for instance Sampras in '98 or Fed in '18. So long as he keeps winning 1-2 slams a year and several other big titles, he should break all the records, even 369 weeks

But we gonna see what's going on
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Wait so Federer didn’t have the all-time record?
No, only the ATP computer #1 era record (Aug 23 1973)

I would say #1 record pre 1950s is invalid because pros rarely played international
Not true, they traveled all over the Americas, Europe, and Australasia
 

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It wouldn't surprise me at all that he also shatters the pre-open era record and goes through the elusive 400 mark. But first the open era record and tomorrow the stand alone Masters1000 record.
Two-year ranking system might help some players who otherwise wouldn't have as much chances the next season.

Also, as in the last season, Nadal just has to say that his readiness is questionable after the clay season and all the tournaments shall again grant him numerous cakewalks full of semi-injured and out-of form players, just to appear therein, like Canada/Cinci last year including USO & RG, consequently at the expense of Djokovic whose quarter & half would be crowded with contenders, dark horses and fit players.

Federer is also going to have easier draws in his 1/16 or even full quarter in masters & slams if possible, probably Murray too for a first few rounds, meaning, not much room left for Djokovic who will soon be 34+.

So, it is more probable that there will be a transitional era with 5-6 players exchanging at the top during 2021-2023 period than 34-36 y.o. Djokovic amassing another 50-60 weeks if slams will be his main goal, and to prognosticate about the tour with 36/37 y.o. Rafole is a pure fiction because there might not be tennis at all again or Rafole might enter another slump/injury period, some NextGener(s) might become a dominant force etc.
 

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Yawn. No



ATP doesn't know a lot of things



Only Tilden played in his 40s. These guys played 100 plus matches a year, every match 5 sets, no tiebreakers, and everyone played doubles too. So I always have to laugh when people say it was easier then, when modern guys get winded after barely 1 hour vs a top guy

The numbers are the numbers. We are only arguing context
Tennis is a much tougher game today than in Tilden's era. It was rare to play 3 hour matches then, even on clay. There were few hard court tournaments as most were played either on grass or clay. Rosewall was last in the top ten at 41 in 1975 and a top 20 player till 1977 at age 43. As I have said before, you should not compare players records with those of distant eras.
 

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Well I was told by experts here that whatever ATP says regarding records is final, and the ATP says that Federer holds the record at 310 weeks, therefore there is no one beyond that point. So Djokovic will hold the record after 310 is surpassed.
 

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One should be careful with comparisons to pre Open Era days. Today's top players rarely play doubles. Today's players are pampered with ballpersons handing them towels (normally), prolonged changeovers with drink concoctions to restore electrolyte levels and who knows what else, set breaks, toilet breaks, ice packs, courtside doctors with pills and potions, and MTO's and only best of 5 sets in majors these days, with tiebreakers everywhere instead of 22-20 sets of yesteryear. Elite players today travel in comfort in their own jets, and if not elite enough to have their own, still enjoy air transport to travel from city to city. Top players today enjoy entourages of coaches, physios, trainers, and those with family can bring them along. Yes, today's players play on hard as well as clay and grass, but with conditions becoming more homogenized, they can play their favored style, mostly baseline, on all surfaces without nearly as much adaptation required. Clay court players can succeed on high bouncing hard grainy courts and table top pristine sun-baked grass. Top players are millionaires many times over.

Then watch a match from even the late 1960's and in extra hot conditions in the Australian summer. Watch them not sit down when changing sides, or even at the end of sets, only grab a sip of water next to the umpire as they pass and have a brief towel wipe. If one got too hurt or sick to continue, there was no Medical Time Out. One lost points and games until one recovered or ended up retiring. Many more matches were best of 5 sets. There were no tiebreakers. So long sets were common. Laver and Roche who played the 1969 AO SF in about 4 hrs and 40 minutes in 40 degree temps, wearing wet cabbage leaves in their hats to keep them cool, went Laver's way, 7-5, 22-20, 9-11, 1-6, 6-3. But sure, players generally played at a faster pace between points.

Top players played Davis Cup for their countries. Playing singles and doubles was very common for the best players. Players often traveled long distances in trains, buses and automobiles, and even ships instead of air travel. Players with family often had to leave them for long periods, making life quite lonely. Many put off having family until they retired. Players played on courts that were tough in those days, having to adapt to irregular conditions on grass courts. You almost had to play serve and volley because who knows what direction and speed the ball could take after bouncing. Players played on grass, clay, carpet, wood, even linoleum. Many chose to stay with one surface and become specialists, rather than attempt to adapt to the variety. The money these players made was laughable compared to today. Laver made under $25,000 for winning THE Grand Slam (all 4 majors) in 1969. Today it would be over 10 million.

These and other differences do make it difficult to compare. However, maybe instead of denigrating those players about how easy they had it in the past, one can tip their hat to them and show them some respect for them paving the way for tennis as we know it today.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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I voted 333-356. I think Djokovic will pass Fed and Laver, but will fall short of Tilden/Gonzales/Renshaw
Maybe my friend, but one has to be careful with assumptions with active players. Anything can happen.
Maybe with another rest, a rejuvenated Federer gets to #1 again and adds many more weeks to his total.

Could be a moving target for Novak. I'm not looking beyond the Rome final myself. ;)

Respectfully,
masterclass
 
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One should be careful with comparisons to pre Open Era days. Today's top players rarely play doubles. Today's players are pampered with ballpersons handing them towels (normally), prolonged changeovers with drink concoctions to restore electrolyte levels and who knows what else, set breaks, toilet breaks, ice packs, courtside doctors with pills and potions, and MTO's and only best of 5 sets in majors these days, with tiebreakers everywhere instead of 22-20 sets of yesteryear. Elite players today travel in comfort in their own jets, and if not elite enough to have their own, still enjoy air transport to travel from city to city. Top players today enjoy entourages of coaches, physios, trainers, and those with family can bring them along. Yes, today's players play on hard as well as clay and grass, but with conditions becoming more homogenized, they can play their favored style, mostly baseline, on all surfaces without nearly as much adaptation required. Clay court players can succeed on high bouncing hard grainy courts and table top pristine sun-baked grass. Top players are millionaires many times over.

Then watch a match from even the late 1960's and in extra hot conditions in the Australian summer. Watch them not sit down when changing sides, or even at the end of sets, only grab a sip of water next to the umpire as they pass and have a brief towel wipe. If one got too hurt or sick to continue, there was no Medical Time Out. One lost points and games until one recovered or ended up retiring. Many more matches were best of 5 sets. There were no tiebreakers. So long sets were common. Laver and Roche who played the 1969 AO SF in about 4 hrs and 40 minutes in 40 degree temps, wearing wet cabbage leaves in their hats to keep them cool, went Laver's way, 7-5, 22-20, 9-11, 1-6, 6-3. But sure, players generally played at a faster pace between points.

Top players played Davis Cup for their countries. Playing singles and doubles was very common for the best players. Players often traveled long distances in trains, buses and automobiles, and even ships instead of air travel. Players with family often had to leave them for long periods, making life quite lonely. Many put off having family until they retired. Players played on courts that were tough in those days, having to adapt to irregular conditions on grass courts. You almost had to play serve and volley because who knows what direction and speed the ball could take after bouncing. Players played on grass, clay, carpet, wood, even linoleum. Many chose to stay with one surface and become specialists, rather than attempt to adapt to the variety. The money these players made was laughable compared to today. Laver made under $25,000 for winning THE Grand Slam (all 4 majors) in 1969. Today it would be over 10 million.

These and other differences do make it difficult to compare. However, maybe instead of denigrating those players about how easy they had it in the past, one can tip their hat to them and show them some respect for them paving the way for tennis as we know it today.

Respectfully,
masterclass
Doesn't change the fact that Laver won 8 slams by winning just 3 matches (1 of the 3 only being Bo3).
 
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