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View Poll Results: Which TB method do you prefer in TT?

Predict-the-Score system (the current system here) 31 46.27%
Set Ratio system (the current system in WTA TT) 36 53.73%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-10-2006, 11:00 AM   #31
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeWHitler View Post
I have played a few PTS tournaments and understand how it works. Do you think the managers will appreciate the extra workload? They aren't get paid to run these games.

What makes you think people haven't read the differing proposals? What cause they have chosen to vote a different way? Some have and others haven't, there is crossover between the games, this is not exactly surprising and it should be limited as much as possible.

There needs to be more than 2 tbs with set ratio.

It's an extra workload for one round to make a fairer game. Calculating up to 5 TB scores for the first round is more work for managers too. Especially since many first time managers have problems understanding the PTS score calculations in the first place.

And what makes me think people haven't read the differing proposals are some of the questions being raised about them, not because of how people voted.

And how do you know there needs to be more than 2 tbs? It's never been tested and by the looks of it, never will.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 AM   #32
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by savestheday91 View Post
More players doesn't make it a different game, it just makes it a more popular one. So all there is is knockout format vs league tabe. Tell me how much difference there is when my first round PTS picks look like this:

Federer 6-2 6-3
Rochus 7-6 6-4
Nadal 6-4 6-3
Berdych 6-4 7-6
Gonzalez 6-4 3-6 7-6
Acasuso 6-3 6-4
Djokovic 7-6 6-3

And my TT picks look like this:

Federer 6-2 6-3
Rochus
Nadal 6-4 6-3
Berdych 6-4 7-6
Gonzalez
Acasuso 6-3 6-4
Djokovic 7-6 6-3
The knockout format is a big difference and what if there wasn't a PTS game? Would you think different then, because to me it seems that you're more against mixing TT with PTS than having something against the PTS system itself.

All I'm saying is let the players decide and I don't see how you're 'saving' TT with bringing one flawed system (set ratios) to replace another flawed system (PTS).
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:13 AM   #33
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labamba View Post
The knockout format is a big difference and what if there wasn't a PTS game? Would you think different then, because to me it seems that you're more against mixing TT with PTS than having something against the PTS system itself.

All I'm saying is let the players decide and I don't see how you're 'saving' TT with bringing one flawed system (set ratios) to replace another flawed system (PTS).
I think predicting scores is not as related to TIPPING as set ratios is and I have said that several times over. I am also strongly against the combination of the two games. Those are my two reasons, and they both contribute equally to why I am so against PTS becoming an even bigger part of this game. I think both of them mar what is otherwise a very good game. Predicting scores takes very little tennis knowledge... it is pure luck whether a set ends up 6-4 or 6-3 half the time, as I've said. Knowing whether it is likely a player will win in 2 sets or 3? That takes a little more tipping knowledge, and that is what is at the base of my proposal: keeping this about tipping and not about luck. Like I said before (somewhere...), PTS had a poll up about switching to knock out format... if PTS had done that, what would the difference be? Nothing. These are supposed to actually be different games, not just different formats.

Also what about situations in PTS where this happens:

Match: Mathieu def Coria 6-1 0-6 7-6

Player A: Mathieu 6-1 6-4 (10+0+1+6)=17
Player B: Mathieu def Coria 2-6 6-2 6-4 (10+5+1+0)=16

Player A wins while in my opinion Player B had a far better idea of how the match would go. In my opinion here, player B is probably the better tipper and would deserve to go through, but instead they lose. Just to know show how unfair PTS can be sometimes as a TB method in a tipping game.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Tennis Tipping is a game of skill to predict the correct winner.

PTS and Set ratios both require luck but with PTS there is more luck involved.

Should TT not be more biased towards skill rather than luck??

Therefore the logical solution would be to go with Set ratios over PTS.

But some people here are voting for what is more exciting What has that got to do with the skill factor in TT when you are relying on more luck with PTS. It's like your playing a full game of skill. Then in extra time suddenly the game changing to being much more luck based. Obviously you need luck with Set ratios as well but not as much as with PTS.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by savestheday91 View Post
I think predicting scores is not as related to TIPPING as set ratios is and I have said that several times over. I am also strongly against the combination of the two games. Those are my two reasons, and they both contribute equally to why I am so against PTS becoming an even bigger part of this game. I think both of them mar what is otherwise a very good game. Predicting scores takes very little tennis knowledge... it is pure luck whether a set ends up 6-4 or 6-3 half the time, as I've said. Knowing whether it is likely a player will win in 2 sets or 3? That takes a little more tipping knowledge, and that is what is at the base of my proposal: keeping this about tipping and not about luck. Like I said before (somewhere...), PTS had a poll up about switching to knock out format... if PTS had done that, what would the difference be? Nothing. These are supposed to actually be different games, not just different formats.

Also what about situations in PTS where this happens:

Match: Mathieu def Coria 6-1 0-6 7-6

Player A: Mathieu 6-1 6-4 (10+0+1+6)=17
Player B: Mathieu def Coria 2-6 6-2 6-4 (10+5+1+0)=16

Player A wins while in my opinion Player B had a far better idea of how the match would go. In my opinion here, player B is probably the better tipper and would deserve to go through, but instead they lose. Just to know show how unfair PTS can be sometimes as a TB method in a tipping game.
That's just one example where the PTS system has a flaw, every system has them including the Set ratios. And why do you always bring out the PTS poll, we don't have to care what they do and you don't have to play both games if you feel like they are too similar (which they aren't).

Do you really think the current system doesn't reward good tipping in the long run? Are the current TMC players the luckiest ones or are they just the best PTS players?
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labamba View Post
Do you really think the current system doesn't reward good tipping in the long run? Are the current TMC players the luckiest ones or are they just the best PTS players?
Obviously a combination of both.

If an ATP player served first and made one break in the first set he would win 6-3. If the ATP player had served second he would have won 6-4.

So is it not pure luck that a TT player picking 6-3 would get more points than a TT player picking 6-4. With set ratio's it would be equal. So basically you are scoring some PTS points for winning a toss! Can you not see this?
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by invu2day View Post
Tennis Tipping is a game of skill to predict the correct winner.

PTS and Set ratios both require luck but with PTS there is more luck involved.

Should TT not be more biased towards skill rather than luck??

Therefore the logical solution would be to go with Set ratios over PTS.

But some people here are voting for what is more exciting What has that got to do with the skill factor in TT when you are relying on more luck with PTS. It's like your playing a full game of skill. Then in extra time suddenly the game changing to being much more luck based. Obviously you need luck with Set ratios as well but not as much as with PTS.
We still need the PTS even with the Set ratio system as it doesn't always decide the match. Why should we have two systems when one system (PTS) can do the trick? And if Set ratios are brought to TT, then the amount of CB's will increase a lot, which means it fights against the basic principle of TT (you start every match with a clean slate just like the real tennis does, old results don't count for nothing and you have to be better than your opponent every day).
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:33 PM   #38
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by invu2day View Post
Obviously a combination of both.

If an ATP player served first and made one break in the first set he would win 6-3. If the ATP player had served second he would have won 6-4.

So is it not pure luck that a TT player picking 6-3 would get more points than a TT player picking 6-4. With set ratio's it would be equal. So basically you are scoring some PTS points for winning a toss! Can you not see this?
That's not even true, if the player who serves first breaks at 5-4* the toss won't have a meaning.

If PTS is all about luck and luck will always run even in the long run, doesn't it mean that picking the winners will decide after all?
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labamba View Post
We still need the PTS even with the Set ratio system as it doesn't always decide the match. Why should we have two systems when one system (PTS) can do the trick? And if Set ratios are brought to TT, then the amount of CB's will increase a lot, which means it fights against the basic principle of TT (you start every match with a clean slate just like the real tennis does, old results don't count for nothing and you have to be better than your opponent every day).
I would not use Set ratios the same way they do at WTAworld. I would play it out as a tiebreak shootout. I would require a set ratio for each match. If for example there were 6 matches they would be numbered TB1 to TB6. Then TB1 from one player is put up against TB1 from another player. As soon as one TT player goes ahead they have won. Plus if set ratios are used It would be fairer to use them first before all CBs which is another positive point. Is this not exciting enough? It's not as if it needs a trial as it is proved to work at WTAworld. So I don't see a problem.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:41 PM   #40
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

No offence to anyone but I think predicting exact tennis scores is ridiculous. This is TENNIS, people - games can hinge on such random factors.

It is the general trends and flows of matches that can be predicted and the closest thing that represents that is set ratios.

In a TB I just end up sending a bunch of 64s and 76s (unless I don't think it'll be a close match, but it invariably is) and whatever because they're the most common set scores. It's a farce.

Hope that helps!

I do concede, however, that knowing your match will go to TB and knowing both players TB predictions makes for an exciting couple of hours!
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:42 PM   #41
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

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Originally Posted by Labamba View Post
That's not even true, if the player who serves first breaks at 5-4* the toss won't have a meaning.
It is true if you lost your first service game
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:46 PM   #42
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

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Originally Posted by alansk View Post
No offence to anyone but I think predicting exact tennis scores is ridiculous. This is TENNIS, people - games can hinge on such random factors.
Didn't you know we are playing the National Lottery here

I do concede it is more exciting but that doesn't make it right.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by invu2day View Post
I would not use Set ratios the same way they do at WTAworld. I would play it out as a tiebreak shootout. I would require a set ratio for each match. If for example there were 6 matches they would be numbered TB1 to TB6. Then TB1 from one player is put up against TB1 from another player. As soon as one TT player goes ahead they have won. Plus if set ratios are used It would be fairer to use them first before all CBs which is another positive point. Is this not exciting enough? It's not as if it needs a trial as it is proved to work at WTAworld. So I don't see a problem.
You're missing one key point here, the Set ratios are much more likely to end in a tie than TB's, if there's only a few matches to predict. In the final and SF there's only 3 or 4 to predict and it's very likely that most players will have the same set ratios. This will mean more CB's for sure.

I understand both views, but for me this is just a matter of two choices. Do you want to bring a new, more complicated system to replace the old system that works? And do you want to have more matches where you've lost even before the first match has started?
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:57 PM   #44
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

I would be happier if we used a different scoring system to PTS where fewer points were awarded for exact set scores. But setting up a new scoring system is ridiculous too So set ratios fit the bill for me - as I just said.

But let's get things straight, I love TT and I aint going anywhere over this minor discussion.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:57 PM   #45
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Default Re: PTS or Set Ratios as TB method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labamba View Post
You're missing one key point here, the Set ratios are much more likely to end in a tie than TB's, if there's only a few matches to predict. In the final and SF there's only 3 or 4 to predict and it's very likely that most players will have the same set ratios. This will mean more CB's for sure.

I understand both views, but for me this is just a matter of two choices. Do you want to bring a new, more complicated system to replace the old system that works? And do you want to have more matches where you've lost even before the first match has started?
Admit than CBs may be used but I would rather lose to a CB than an unlucky TB score. Here though I would use TBs over CB's which is what we don't do at the moment. The key point here is the better tipper will win with alot less luck.
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