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Old 02-09-2006, 06:59 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

I agree with RonE, repressive governments will take any opportunity to distract their citizens (subjects?) from how crap their lives are by making up conveniently foreign enemies. The protestors should look to themselves instead of blaming others and seeking scapegoatsBut to extend this a bit, arguably you could also say that this has been an effective tactic of our friend GW Bush in the US. Sure, the US is a democracy, since he took office he has used public fear with near-impunity.
The protestors should learn a bit of tolerance. The other night I saw the movie "Euro Trip" (crap btw!), there was a scene towards the end of two of the characters having sex in the confession box of a church in the Vatican. Thankfully the Pope doesn't see the need to issue a fatwa for the immediate execution of everyone involved in that tackiness. I shudder to think of the reaction if the scene had been set in a mosque.
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Old 02-09-2006, 07:17 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonE
To answer your question you need to take a look in what countries these protests are arranged- Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Indonesia etc. These are not exactly democracies and the reason for which these countries have fueled the protests is quite simple and has already been mentioned. In dictatorships to help ease local tensions cropping up from the masses it is in those governments best interest to fire up the masses on such issues which will let them vent their anger and unhappiness on issues not connected with how brutal or cruel the regime in that country is.
I agree with you in that all regimes, not only dictatorships, try to use and direct public opinion and unrest according to their own interests.

But the fact is there have been protests all over the islamic world AND in Europe. In Finland, too, there was a peaceful demonstration against the Danish newspaper. My point was that dismissing all of these public protests, the majority of which have been peaceful, as being invented, manipulated and fueled by fundamentalist or narrow political interests is unfairly delegitimizing the concern and anger that the vast moderate majority of the Muslim world has expressed over the rude insult to their idea of sacred.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RonE
So if I was to log on, activate my webcam and start burning the Finish flag in front of you that would be alright then? There is a reason why in civilized countries it is illegal to burn flags and dismissing it simply as a 'symbolic' act is ridiculous. Try burning the Iranian or Syrian flag in the street I assure you that act would carry a lot more weight than mere 'symbolism' in the eyes of those concerned.
I didn't say it is ok to burn a flag. All I said was that ordering flags for a demonstration is perfectly rational because of the easy media coverage one gets by burning them and thus one is able to send a symbolic message all over the world. I wanted to raise this point because I understood that the "revelation" of a protest being postponed because of the need to wait for the flags to arrive was used to delegitimize and dismiss the protest as ingenuine and solely manipulated.

Also I don't understand how I should understand the act of burning a flag other than 'symbolic'. It's a powerful symbol, sending a strong message. As were the cartoons, too. So in my view, this is essentially a symbolic conflict thus far, with very unfortunate and condemnable violent consequenses as well.
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:53 AM   #48
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

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Originally Posted by el güero
I don't understand what is so strange about the protests being organized. If you go to a public demonstration against or in defence of anything, it is probably organized, and the cartoon protests make no exception.
I don't have a problem with public demonstrations.
In Brussels, they held a peaceful demonstration. It was an unannounced one (normally, you have to get permission of the city...certainly in the capital city of Europe) but there were no problems at all.
In fact, I feel that many people joining the demonstration are just trying to get more respect and more understanding for their religion in the Western societies. Surely, that respect and understanding has deteriorated since 9/11. I, for one, think that Islam as a religion does deserve more respect and it should be made more clear that the extremists we see (suicide bombers for example) are not a fair representation of that religion. In the so-called Western societies, people have a vision of Islam that is too narrow and I don't really understand why the moderate voice of Islam is so quiet these days (maybe I have been listening in the wrong places).

Here, where I live, I feel that many young Muslims in particular feel that they are being more targetted after 9/11.
On the one hand, the extreme right parties (such as Vlaams Belang in my country) use them in their :retard: political campaigns as an easy target, a scapegoat for many problems we have. It's easy to do and it's human nature to want to blame others because that sure feels better than looking at yourself and putting at least part of the blame of the problems with yourself.
So, I feel that the frustration is justified and therefor, I don't mind them demonstrating peacefully.
On the other hand, more and more, we hear the voice of extremism in Islam as well and it's very difficult for outsiders to talk to them because they seem to be easily offended by anything a non-Muslim says. Any sort of open communication is next to impossible. How can we understand them better if they're not willing to communicate in an open way?

So, more and more, we see a clash of extreme viewpoints and the only effect that has is a widening of the gap between us.
We need to hear the moderate voice louder on each side of that fence.
I'm not a religious person, but I do feel that Christianity and Islam have more in common than they think so why can't people focus more on what we share instead of what divides us?
That's perhaps a naive viewpoint to take but I feel that there are a lot of people on either side who have a very political agenda and who are accentuating the differences on purpose instead of trying to build a bridge and I have the impression that this is the case with this current situation.
Sure, many people demonstrating are genuinely voicing their frustration because they would like more respect perhaps and there's nothing wrong with that but I have the impression that certain groups behind all this orchestrated it to feed on the differences and to feed their own political agenda.

Following the link from Socket. It sure is weird that those cartoons did not cause any uproar when it was published in an Egyptian newspaper in october 2005 but when a Danish newspaper publishes them, we see angry reactions that you can not portray the profet like that because it's an insult.
Sorry but I don't understand that and it would sure help to get an explanation from somebody why the reactions to the publication of the cartoons in these two newspapers were so different.

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Old 02-10-2006, 08:15 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Got to love religious fundamentalists of all kinds.
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Old 02-10-2006, 11:19 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangerine_dream
Wouldn't the terrorist problem be solved if all these Muslims got just as angry over the suicide bombings of innocent people as they do over a cartoon?
Yeah I agree with Tangy,the Vatican doesn't react violently to the cartoons and criticisms of Christianity yet the Islam World pounces on any given opportunity to confront the Western Civilisation. I just hope this isn't the building up to a 3rd World War Mankind never learns from its past mistakes,I can't beleive that after the disatrous 20th century we are still hungry for War Violence isn't the long term solution and it's up to us to find a long term solution, TOLERANCE would be one long term solution and if we could rid Racism then it would be a far better world.
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Originally Posted by buddyholly
I especially liked the comment that the protests were delayed until the shipment of Danish flags arrived.
Oh holy sh*t! How much more :retard: :retard: can this affair get It's so stupid that you feel like laughing
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:25 PM   #51
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

What I found pathetic was the Islamic protest in London against the cartoons- 'Behead those who insult us', 'Kill the infidels' those scum should be locked up or tortured.

They also forgot the fact that the UK weren't even responsible for the cartoons.
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Old 02-10-2006, 03:51 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

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Originally Posted by joeyd2005
What I found pathetic was the Islamic protest in London against the cartoons- 'Behead those who insult us', 'Kill the infidels' those scum should be locked up or tortured.

They also forgot the fact that the UK weren't even responsible for the cartoons.
The protests aren't about the cartoons anymore (and probably never were). They're just using it as an excuse to stir up more anti-West anti-Europe sentiment.
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:04 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

This is a social problem, not a religious one.
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:10 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Hum, isn't a religion problem by definition a social problem?
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:22 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

I was out of town so thanks everyone for replying to el guero on my behalf. Almost leaves nothing to be said, except to repeat that the reaction to the cartoons died down quickly and did not flare up until some Danish Imams went on a Middle East tour and showed illustrations not remotely related to the cartoons printed in the Danish paper. Then riots broke out everywhere simultaneously. More than enough proof that everything was planned by the governments. So, you may be sure that they were not spontaneous demonstrations. In Syria and Iran no-one spontaneously demonstrates until the government gives the go-ahead, anyway.
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Old 02-13-2006, 01:05 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Game without Regulation is not Game!

Freedom of Express without Boundary and Limit is not Freedom of Express!




The Westerners should learn! You can have freedom of express, but you should respect other religions!


The Dane newspaper is unwise to create the crisis!


How about if somebody non-Westerners says:

No Nazi Massacre against Jew?

Certain European Queen was a prostitute in her young time!

Westerners always think that they must be right, but they are usually lack of self-criticism.

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Old 02-13-2006, 03:36 AM   #57
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Why do people compare an innacurate fact with a caricature? Picturing Mohammed with a bomb isn't an innacurate fact, it's a metaphor, an image. To express that Islam has become a religion of violence for a lot of people; which is true.

If people want to deny the Holocaust, I think they should be entitled to think that way... Many intellectuals also feel that way, if you accept freedom of speech, you also have to accept fully the consequences.

As for the Queen being a whore, well she's been called worst than that and no one really gives a fuck.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:50 AM   #58
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

For those who can read Spanish, interesting and brief interview with Gunter Grass (originally done by "El país" from Spain) about this issue. Specially his opinion about the first newspaper (or was a magazine?) that published the cartoons and why were published (and the similarities he sees of these cartoons with the ones of the "Der Strümer" nazi newspaper). Of course, all the interview is very interesting, IMO. Even when it´s a brief interview, he doesn´t simplify this issue.
http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/...2/345174.shtml

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Old 02-13-2006, 04:54 AM   #59
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by kapranos
Hum, isn't a religion problem by definition a social problem?
In most academic disciplines it does not necessarily mean the same thing. Although I appreciate you calling me on my ambiguity! My point was that this is not an issue that has religious doctrine at its core — the issue runs much deeper than this. Surely, if it were a doctrinal issue we would see protests against the graver theological problems facing Islam— such as the morality of supporting terrorist organizations.
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Old 02-14-2006, 06:46 AM   #60
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

No religious person likes it if there GOD or PROPHET is being insulted. Hardcore conservative Christians wouldn't be happy if newspapers were showing insulting cortoons of Jesus.

Of course, the reaction is way too extreme but this all could have been avoided if the cartoons were pulled and an apology was issued.

Freedom of Speech should not infringe on anyones rights. Calling someones God/Prophet a terrorist is going too far and many muslims will find it insulting.

I just don't want this to escalte into another war. Islamic countries should stop bombing embassies and stop the anti western propoganda while the Western countries should stop antagonizing them and realize that poor, angry, depressed people have nothing to lose. Stop the root of the problem - poverty and lack of education.
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