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Old 02-08-2006, 02:11 AM   #31
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

for the first time i find myself agreeing with AgassiDom but i was just going to disagree with your point that western religions don't receive the same kind of mockery, like winston's human says there's been plenty of that. imo criticism is fine, mockery isn't, as you said. i'm all for freedom of speech but it has to be possible to draw a line between where you get the benefit of saying what you want but also considering whether what you get out of it is really worth insulting or humiliating someone else. where that line is, that i can't really say, but there's been plenty of wrong done on both sides of this. that's just my two cents.
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The western media (especially the entertainment industry) is often insulting and highly disdainful towards Christianity and traditionalist Christians.
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Old 02-08-2006, 04:51 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Denmark! Denmark!
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:15 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

These days, I often see that people mention that freedom of speech should not entail the right to offend others. I agree with that to a certain extent but doesn't that put the very idea behind 'freedom of speech' into question? Where do you draw the line of what can be said and what can't be said?
What's hurtful to you is not hurtful to me and vice versa. If we should make up a list of all the sensitive issues we should avoid, what's left of this "freedom of speech"?
I'm more an agnostic now, but I was born in the roman-catholic faith. Many jokes on the previous pope were tasteless to me even if I disagreed with a lot of what that man used to say. But I don't really have a problem with those tasteless jokes as long as others can point out why it's tasteless to them.

To use the words of Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

I think that there's a bigger danger in putting limits on that freedom of speech.
In the same sense, I think that people should be allowed to say just about everything (that includes questioning the holocaust, even if I do find that stupid and very hurtful) as long as others are allowed to disagree with that and voice their opposition to that viewpoint in words. Only that way, can we come to a more moderate ground instead of a clash of extreme viewpoints. I don't believe in a "let's not talk about it" approach.
Of course, that's easier said than done: people who express a very extreme viewpoint are often beyond the stage of "reason" and they're not interested in listening to what others have to say because they've made up their minds. We can see this all too often on MTF but in a much smaller scale of course: the trolls we see in here are not interested in reading other viewpoints.

Still, I think it's more healthy for a society to have all its problems out in the open.
Only that way, can we learn to understand why others think the way they do and only that way can we learn better when to keep our mouth shut because a certain joke we were about to say is insulting to others.
We will always have extremists in our society but it's really key here to give a voice to a more moderate opinion. For example, I don't think that the moderate voice of Islam is heard enough these days and I have no idea why actually. Often in these cases, I hear many Muslim friends say that many people have the wrong idea of Islam but that opinion gets pushed aside by the louder voice of a group of extremists.

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Old 02-08-2006, 07:42 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Muhammad's image subject of art in past
By David R. Sands
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published February 8, 2006

Lost in the furor over cartoons of the prophet Muhammad is the fact that his likeness has long been portrayed in the collections of some of the world's greatest museums and libraries without exciting alarm or comment.

While rare in the 1,400 years of Islamic art, depictions of Muhammad are found in the collections of such institutions as New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Bibliotheque Nationale de France in Paris and the Edinburgh University library.

Muhammad has been portrayed in the work of revered Muslim artists and of such Western figures as William Blake, Auguste Rodin and Salvador Dali -- as well as the creators of the cable-TV cartoon series "South Park."

None of those depictions aroused the anger seen in reaction to a set of satirical cartoons that appeared in Danish and other European newspapers -- a violent response that continued to roil the Muslim world yesterday.

Three Afghans were killed and dozens wounded in a firefight with NATO peacekeepers in southern Afghanistan. Demonstrations also took place in Iran, India, Pakistan, Egypt, Nigeria, the Philippines and the Palestinian territories.

In Washington, President Bush called Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to express "solidarity and support."

Alan A. Godlas, who teaches Islamic studies at the University of Georgia, said Islam has long frowned on depictions of the prophet out of a concern that any images of Muhammad or other religious figures could lead to idolatry and detract from worship of Allah.

But, he said, "The reason these cartoons sparked such a reaction has more to do with the tensions that were already there between the Islamic world and the West, and because in the age of the Internet, what goes on anywhere in the world is heard and seen everywhere."

Many of the best-known Islamic portrayals of Muhammad are miniatures done in the 14th and 15th centuries by mystical Persian artists who argued that their small, imperfect efforts could never be taken for the actual prophet, and thus were not blasphemous.

The famous "Book of the Assumption of Muhammad," thought to have been painted around 1436 in Herat, Afghanistan, shows Muhammad mounted on a human-headed horse being led by the Archangel Gabriel on a tour of Paradise and Hell. The original is in the collection of the French Bibliotheque Nationale.

Even more plentiful are miniatures showing scenes from the life of the prophet with his face and hands covered or his features purposely obscured.

"Nothing in the Koran is as categorical as the condemnation of imagery in the Hebrew Bible" found in Exodus and Deuteronomy, said French art scholar Alexandre Papadopoulo in his massive 1979 survey, "Islam and Muslim Art."

But Islamic art scholars say the prohibition against portraying Muhammad has hardened over the centuries, based on sayings attributed to the prophet, on the absence of figurative religious art in the earliest mosques and on interpretations by Muslim theologians.

"One should not represent any religious image because it would ridicule the figure of God, and it would be idolatrous to depict the faces of the prophets and saints of Islam, particularly in mosques, where they ran the risk of becoming objects of veneration or prayer," Mr. Papadopoulo wrote.

Mr. Godlas compared the Islamic opposition to portraying Muhammad to the reaction of many Protestant churches against the religious imagery and the worship of saints in the Catholic Church.

The great divide in Islam between Shi'ite and Sunni interpretations is reflected in attitudes toward art, said to Islamic scholar Ibrahim Moussawi in Beirut.

"For the most part, Shi'ite Islam has no problem portraying the prophet Muhammad in a respectful manner," he said. "Much Shi'ite art depicts the revered Imams Hussein, Ali and others."

But, he said, "More conservative strains of Sunni Islam prohibit idolatry in any form, including, in some cases, prohibitions of showing the human form at all."

In Sunni-majority Egypt, television serials recounting the founding days of Islam will not show Muhammad or any of his closest companions.

"The ultimate problem here is that this [Danish] portrayal was a cartoon and was perceived as disrespectful," Mr. Moussawi said.
•Mitchell Prothero in Beirut contributed to this report.
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Old 02-08-2006, 08:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Agassi I disagree,
Freedom of expression is the most precious thing we have in democratic countries, more precious than everything. The message of this cartoons is perhpas not the one everyone see, who is faking islam ? The one who publish a drawing who shows what the Western is about to think, precisally because of terrorism and islamism or the ones who pray human self destruction for the sake of their religion ? Really, I think islam must evolve now... like christianim did, they must stop sticking to their textes and old traditions wich really can't work nowadays.... What muslim are showing right now is a terrible violence and a narrow mind.
The fact that they can't accept this kind of stuff shows they are not self confident... They must take some distance from their religion really...
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Old 02-08-2006, 08:49 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

The editor of the Danish newspaper has said he wanted to test the limits of freedom of speech. Apparently those limits are pretty allowing as I haven't heard of any legal case against the paper. If the paper had to do it, I just wish it would have done it with some other religion. Or by publishing racist or neo-nazist comments, which would certainly have put the editor in court. Because in the end, the freedom of speech is never absolute in any society.

Now the result of this experiment has got out of hands because of the recent tensions between the Western and the Muslim world, stemming from the larger political and historical situation. By knowingly forgetting this polarized global context and by presenting the issue as strictly domestic and legal, the paper has shown total ignorance of the need to a sensitive intercultural dialogue.

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Old 02-08-2006, 10:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Now, here's a very interesting link

http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.c...ott-egypt.html

to a blog which has scanned pages from an Egyptian newspaper which apparently printed copies of the cartoons at issue last October, during Ramadan, when they were greeted without any of the rhetoric, death threats, or riots we currently see. Makes you go, "hmmmmm," doesn't it?
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Old 02-08-2006, 10:44 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

I think everyone is overreacting.
It's was meant as a funny cartoon, that's it, and the way the muslims reacted was just dumb, burning flags on the street and stuff, that just promotes violence.
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:05 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socket
Now, here's a very interesting link

http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.c...ott-egypt.html

to a blog which has scanned pages from an Egyptian newspaper which apparently printed copies of the cartoons at issue last October, during Ramadan, when they were greeted without any of the rhetoric, death threats, or riots we currently see. Makes you go, "hmmmmm," doesn't it?
Thank you for that. I have been assuming all the fuss now has only been created as a distraction to keep people concentrated on the infidels and not on their own governments.
I especially liked the comment that the protests were delayed until the shipment of Danish flags arrived.
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Old 02-08-2006, 11:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyholly
Thank you for that. I have been assuming all the fuss now has only been created as a distraction to keep people concentrated on the infidels and not on their own governments.
I especially liked the comment that the protests were delayed until the shipment of Danish flags arrived.
It's the Muslim equivalent of the Roman "bread and circuses."

Yeah, the flag comment was a classic. Funny how the MSM hasn't picked up on that, isn't it?
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:16 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socket
Funny how the MSM hasn't picked up on that, isn't it?
I am so amazed that the media does not seem to be on to this, that I thought maybe it is a hoax. How could the media not know about this? It completely torpedoes the Muslim claim of being insulted by ANY portrayal of Muhammed.
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:26 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyholly
I am so amazed that the media does not seem to be on to this, that I thought maybe it is a hoax. How could the media not know about this? It completely torpedoes the Muslim claim of being insulted by ANY portrayal of Muhammed.
*coughs*politicalcorrectness*coughs*
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Old 02-09-2006, 03:21 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by tangerine_dream
DEATH to political correctness.

*emails link to local newspapers*

great find, Socket
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Old 02-09-2006, 04:19 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyholly
I especially liked the comment that the protests were delayed until the shipment of Danish flags arrived.
I don't understand what is so strange about the protests being organized. If you go to a public demonstration against or in defence of anything, it is probably organized, and the cartoon protests make no exception. IMO that does not delegitimize the protests or make them less credible. Who says otherwise is being in danger of representing a stereotypic image of the Muslims being irrational, acting "affectionately" or being manipulated by other people. Demonstrating is not a spontaneous act made in a flash of rage (as the media images make easily believe) but a rational decision to raise one's voice.

What comes to the flag burning, that is clearly a symbolic act and one directed to the media. The protesters are well aware that acts like these draw attention from the tv-cameras and gets them more publicity. So, if they want to get a wider audience for their demonstration, it is perfectly rational to wait for a flag order to arrive.

I want to make it clear that I don't approve of attacking people or burning embassies. I also think that the demonstrations have got out of hand in many places. But I disagree with those who try to delegitimize all the protesters' motives, question their genuineness and present them as manipulated people without their own will and reason.
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Old 02-09-2006, 05:08 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by el güero
I don't understand what is so strange about the protests being organized. If you go to a public demonstration against or in defence of anything, it is probably organized, and the cartoon protests make no exception. IMO that does not delegitimize the protests or make them less credible. Who says otherwise is being in danger of representing a stereotypic image of the Muslims being irrational, acting "affectionately" or being manipulated by other people. Demonstrating is not a spontaneous act made in a flash of rage (as the media images make easily believe) but a rational decision to raise one's voice.
To answer your question you need to take a look in what countries these protests are arranged- Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Indonesia etc. These are not exactly democracies and the reason for which these countries have fueled the protests is quite simple and has already been mentioned. In dictatorships to help ease local tensions cropping up from the masses it is in those governments best interest to fire up the masses on such issues which will let them vent their anger and unhappiness on issues not connected with how brutal or cruel the regime in that country is.

As you correctly pointed out, demonstrations are not spontaneous acts made in a fit of rage and the upper hierachy of various regimes are anything but spontaneous and therefore have carefully and shrewdly organized the protests by adding more fuel to the fire.

Quote:
What comes to the flag burning, that is clearly a symbolic act and one directed to the media. The protesters are well aware that acts like these draw attention from the tv-cameras and gets them more publicity. So, if they want to get a wider audience for their demonstration, it is perfectly rational to wait for a flag order to arrive.
So if I was to log on, activate my webcam and start burning the Finish flag in front of you that would be alright then? There is a reason why in civilized countries it is illegal to burn flags and dismissing it simply as a 'symbolic' act is ridiculous. Try burning the Iranian or Syrian flag in the street I assure you that act would carry a lot more weight than mere 'symbolism' in the eyes of those concerned.
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