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Old 08-24-2005, 04:17 AM   #61
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis Fool
Just admit your anti-Americanism
Not until you admit you are an arse clown and of course you missed the fact that I have criticised the whole sport of cycling consistently. He's doped up as most of the other cyclists, especially the top ones, but hey it's just better to overlook that.
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On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 08-24-2005, 05:25 AM   #62
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/columnis...555047,00.html

A hotline to the White House but France hangs up on Armstrong

Richard Williams
Wednesday August 24, 2005
The Guardian


Just over a century ago, in its earlier guise as L'Auto, the French daily sports paper L'Equipe was responsible for founding the Tour de France. Its feelings of proprietorship towards the great race, then, are hardly surprising. And one way of interpreting yesterday's allegations of traces of EPO discovered in samples of urine taken from Lance Armstrong during the 1999 Tour is to see it as the French cycling establishment's attempt to take back the race from an American who colonised their most precious sporting event as effectively as Hollywood, rock 'n' roll and Levi jeans took over the minds of French teenagers 50 years ago, to the disadvantage - some would say - of the indigenous culture.

In France, a certain element has always resisted this kind of US imperialism. For Greg LeMond to win the Tour three times was one thing. It was quite another for Armstrong to obliterate the record of five wins first established by one great French cyclist, Jacques Anquetil, and equalled by another, Bernard Hinault, as well as by Eddy Merckx of Belgium and Miguel Indurain of Spain, all representatives of cycling's Old World. The absence of a single Frenchman among the pretenders to the Texan's throne is another source of frustration to L'Equipe's writers and, perhaps, its readers.
After initially finding him difficult to love, eventually the French cycling public more or less capitulated to the cowboy with - as one of the newspaper's correspondents put it yesterday - the voice like ice cubes, the steely gaze, and the lips forever on the brink of a smile full of menace. Not to mention the posse of bodyguards and the hotline to the White House.

On the centenary Tour two years ago there was certainly little sign of resentment as Armstrong drew level with the record held by his four great predecessors. Only the tidal wave of spectators from the other side of the Atlantic, turning the verges of the routes départmentales into a sea of stars and stripes, might have irked them during the two more recent tours. They were there to celebrate as Armstrong first set a new mark and then, in a crushing example of American might, doubled the distance between himself and those he had surpassed.

Yesterday's publication of what are claimed to be the a posteriori tests of Armstrong's B samples, however, reawakens all the old doubts that led to cries of "dopeur!" being directed at him from the roadside earlier in the decade. Those were the days when L'Equipe could only express its doubts about the nature of some performances in coded headlines referring to "Le Tour à deux vitesses" - the two-speed Tour, meaning one speed for the dopers and another, slower, gear for those who raced clean.

There is also, perhaps, the question of moral revenge for the shadows cast over French cycling in 1998 by the Festina affair, when the discovery of drugs in the vehicle of Willy Voet, one of the team's soigneurs, led to the disgrace of Richard Virenque, France's pin-up boy. Virenque spent years adamantly denying that he had used illegal substances. But then he cracked, and served a nine-month suspension before being welcomed back as a prodigal son when he won the climb up Mont Ventoux in the 2002 Tour.

Armstrong's first Tour victory came the year after the Festina scandal, at a time when the race organisers were attempting to promote a new, drug-free image for the event. EPO was already illegal, but there was no test capable of determining its existence. That arrived in 2000, although the authorities were not ready to use it on samples from the Tour's riders until a year later.

Yesterday L'Equipe published the results of Armstrong's Tour dope tests between 2001-2004, in other words after EPO had become detectable. In 36 separate tests during the four Tours, no illegal substances were discovered.

In 1999, however, riders using EPO had no reason to suppose that it would ever be detected. And even now the retrospective analysis of that year's tests cannot be used as the basis for stripping riders of their prizes, since only the B samples have been tested. The A samples, which would be used to corroborate the initial findings, no longer exist. So Armstrong's lawyers could presumably claim that while evidence may exist, proof does not.

Questions hang in the air, and some of them will probably remain there. In the light of the lengthy investigation conducted by the Paris police into the possible use of drugs by Armstrong's US Postal team in 2000, why did the French authorities wait until December 2004, more than four years after the test was developed by scientists in the national drug-screening laboratory at Châtenay- Malabry, before examining samples that were already five years old? And why has it taken until now for the results to be leaked to L'Equipe?

Those preparing to confront Armstrong's legal team in the variety of court proceedings in which the rider is bringing actions for defamation will heartened by yesterday's news. For one or two of them it will be like seven Christmasses arriving at once. Less easy to assess is the effect it will have in the wider world on the reputation of a man whose victory over a virulent form of cancer inspired countless thousands of fellow suffers around the world.

To make a historical analogy is to venture on to treacherous ground. But it can be said with some confidence that L'Equipe is unlikely to be casting similar aspersions on the achievements of Anquetil, whose five Tours were won on amphetamines and goodness knows what else.

It is almost half a century since Maître Jacques posed the most famous rhetorical question in the history of cycling: "Do they expect us to ride the Tour on mineral water?" His Legion d'honneur ribbon, and his sacred status, went to the grave with him. Armstrong might not be so fortunate.
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On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 08-24-2005, 07:29 AM   #63
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

It's always amazing how fast old clichés come back in such mediatic twisters!
And it's always fun to read how ppl can talk about sthg they don't even have a clue what it deals with. For those who really are interested to comment on what is the true bottom line of that issue, let me send you back to the link I've posted on the 1st page, which is THE article at the root of all that mediatic storm. Use Babelfish or any other way to translate that article, and only then, make yourself your own opinion. Because, asserting things without knowing what you're talking about isn't much better than what some here have criticized coming from L'Equipe...Only then, you'll be able to get the whole meaning of that issue. But if you don't make that effort, don't complain if you get ignored, because you simply won't know what you're talking about.
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Old 08-24-2005, 07:37 AM   #64
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

I posted the article and not as a reflection of person views and it's very simple EPO can't be detected by urine tests and for those who actually care, there is a natural level of haemoglobin within humans found in any blood test and once it's over that limit then it gets investigated, just like nandrolone which is a natural product, but with elevated haemoglobin levels then EPO (at the time) and other improved products since then once it has been over the limit then there is a doping case as long as both A and B sample are over the legal limit.

Then again this doesn't surprise in the sport of cycling, but hey I must be anti-American, cause cycling is full of doping.
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On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1

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Old 08-24-2005, 07:59 AM   #65
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

You're anti-American and I hate Armstrong because he's been the naughty one who has stopped some Frenchy from winning the Tour! Like Virenque or Voeckler. And if all goes well, Chirac will soon give a medal to the journalist of l'Equipe who has finally been successful in making Armstrong, an evil American, fall from his throne.

If some of you get shocked by what is stated above, I'm curious to know from which part exactly it begins...
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:14 AM   #66
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

A few things the AP article didn't mention. Also the mistake about the detection of EPO samples was missed at worst and an oversight at best.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/...555218,00.html

Yesterday L'Equipe printed results of tests carried out in the Paris laboratory of Châtenay-Malabry, which is registered with the World Anti-Doping Agency. The samples were recently retested as part of scientific research co-ordinated with Wada.

They had been preserved at -20C to prevent molecular transformations that could lead to false positive results.

"There is no possible doubt about the validity of the result, even though the analysis was carried out five years after the sample was taken," the newspaper quoted Professor Jacques de Ceaurriz, the director of Châtenay-Malabry laboratory, as saying.

The EPO test was first introduced at the Olympic Games in Sydney and has been used since the 2001 Tour de France. None of the tests have subsequently showed Armstrong as being positive.

The Wada president Dick Pound said he was looking into the allegations. "It's a pretty serious story if it is true," he said. "We have not decided what we would do because I have not looked at all the details. We will look at the information available and then we will decide the best way to get as much light on this as possible."

Just how L'Equipe obtained the test results and identified Armstrong's urine samples and results remains unclear. The laboratory denied leaking the information but confirmed tests on samples from the 1998 and 1999 Tour have recently been carried out. L'Equipe refused to reveal its sources.

The L'Equipe journalist Jean-Pier Bidet, who followed Armstrong closely during his Tour de France victories, said that the paper had been investigating the test results for four months but only received the final piece of the jigsaw on Monday afternoon when official documents showed the samples were taken from Armstrong.

Although a total of 12 positive samples were discovered during testing, L'Equipe only made the allegations against Armstrong because the newspaper could confirm his identity with the official anti-doping test documents.

The laboratory said all tests were anonymous and had been transmitted to the Wada providing they would not take disciplinary action.

When a rider gives a urine sample he signs documents admitting that it is his sample. A copy of the document goes to the International Cycling Union and another to the Ministry of Sport in France, while the sample is sent to the laboratory marked by a code so that the testers do not know the identity of the rider. L'Equipe had claimed to have matched leaked documents to the codes on the laboratory samples.

Because the tests were not part of official anti-doping testing and because no counter-analysis can be carried out Armstrong cannot be disciplined and banned.

However he could be placed under police investigation in France and the United States Anti-Doping Agency (Usada) told L'Equipe the tests results could be used against him.

The accusations could also hurt Armstrong in the pocket. The US insurance company SCA refused to pay out a $5m (£2.8m) bonus when he won a sixth Tour de France in 2004 following allegations made in the book, LA Confidentiel: Les Secrets de Lance Armstrong, which contained allegations of doping.

Armstrong is already involved in seven legal battles against the writers of the LA Confidentiel book, fellow riders and former assistants.

The director of the Tour de France, Jean Marie Leblanc, told the French radio station RTL he felt let down by Armstrong and said L'Equipe's report seemed "very complete, very professional, very meticulous" and that it "appears credible".

However, he warned that Armstrong, his doctors and his aides should be heard out before any final judgment was made.

The International Cycling Union president Hein Verbruggen said: "We have to wait and see if this is true. Only then will we be able to ask ourselves whether there should be any legal action and whether this is a further blow for cycling. I have to say this is not pleasant but, for the moment, it only involves Lance Armstrong and France."

Armstrong has always dismissed the allegations against him and criticised those who refused to believe in his comeback from cancer and in his seven Tour victories.
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On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:12 AM   #67
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Well, if I don't doubt at all of Armstrong's guilt (it's not possible to make a cyclist carrier without taking any doping, so win Le Tour 7 times just with water...ugh ), yes I think l'Equipe's proofs are good etc... but I don't understand this fierceness against Lance. It's always have been like that I think, I wonder why all this inquiry just for a cyclist, and not for the others ? I mean, Ullrich and'co are doped... they all get drug, so why to admit Armstrong is just the best though ?
I'm a loyal reader of l'Equipe, this newspaper is very serious etc..but there I don't like the polemic they created. It's like if they were very proud to pinch Armstrong finally, like if it was an obssession since a long time.
That's ridiculous, did they do the same for another suspicious sportmen ? No.

(I hope my speech is understanding)

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Old 08-24-2005, 09:20 AM   #68
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Choupi
I hate Armstrong because he's been the naughty one who has stopped some Frenchy from winning the Tour! Like Virenque or Voeckler.
Choupi, sweetie, remind you that Virenque was doped too.

Great post Marine. I couldn't agree more.
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:27 AM   #69
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marine
Well, if I don't doubt at all of Armstrong's guilt (it's not possible to make a cyclist carrier without taking any doping, so win Le Tour 7 times just with water...ugh ), yes I think l'Equipe's proofs are good etc... but I don't understand this fierceness against Lance. It's always have been like that I think, I wonder why all this inquiry just for a cyclist, and not for the others ? I mean, Ullrich and'co are doped... they all get drug, so why to admit Armstrong is just the best though ?
I'm a loyal reader of l'Equipe, this newspaper is very serious etc..but there I don't like the polemic they created. It's like if they were very proud to pinch Armstrong finally, like if it was an obssession since a long time.
That's ridiculous, did they do the same for another suspicious sportmen ? No.

(I hope my speech is understanding)
What you say is logical and makes sense and is understood, the thing is if l'Equipe could prove Armstrong was doped up during the tour even better for them. The cyclists and the teams aren't stupid, the main reason well he won the tour 7 times in a row, so extra scrutiny is natural.
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On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:42 AM   #70
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Default Re: LANCE ARMSTRONG TESTED POSITIVE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connie
Choupi, sweetie, remind you that Virenque was doped too.
Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about it and how it all began, with strong denyings and then, admitting what was the obvious. That's precisely why I have named him, and why I have added the name of Voeckler, who dared wearing the yellow shirt for 11 days last year. A French is unable of such a thing, he surely was doped. Somebody should investigate.
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:51 AM   #71
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Virenque is always presented as the guy who "paid" for all the other cyslists. Like a martyr. arghh maybe he paid more than the others, but I remember his palaver in 1997, his tears "à l'insu de mon plein gré , well he was pityful.
I can't stand him
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:58 AM   #72
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Quote:
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A French is unable of such a thing, he surely was doped. Somebody should investigate.
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Old 08-24-2005, 10:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Jones
Of course l'Equipe did not name any French athletes and the only one they named was Armstrong. Probably he did take EPO but he certainly was not the only one and why didn't the drug committee say anything about this?
Some french cyclists were suspended in the past...and don't worry...it made the headlines of L'equipe too.
But for the current case, what is more shocking? an athlete who took EPO and finished at the 72nd rank or an athlete who took EPO and won the Tour de France

But yes I agree if there are other athletes involved in this inquiry they should be mentionned as well...not only Armstrong's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marine
Virenque is always presented as the guy who "paid" for all the other cyslists. Like a martyr. arghh maybe he paid more than the others, but I remember his palaver in 1997, his tears "à l'insu de mon plein gré , well he was pityful.
I can't stand him
Virenque was not considered as a victim by the medias...like with the "guignols"........"A l'insue de mon plein grès"... So cult
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Old 08-24-2005, 11:50 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choupi
It's always amazing how fast old clichés come back in such mediatic twisters!
And it's always fun to read how ppl can talk about sthg they don't even have a clue what it deals with. For those who really are interested to comment on what is the true bottom line of that issue, let me send you back to the link I've posted on the 1st page, which is THE article at the root of all that mediatic storm. Use Babelfish or any other way to translate that article, and only then, make yourself your own opinion. Because, asserting things without knowing what you're talking about isn't much better than what some here have criticized coming from L'Equipe...Only then, you'll be able to get the whole meaning of that issue. But if you don't make that effort, don't complain if you get ignored, because you simply won't know what you're talking about.
Nice try, Choupi. But I would think most people commenting here aren't as badly informed as you try to label them here and are aware about what they are talking. Different opinions arise, something normal.
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Old 08-24-2005, 12:33 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Nice try, Choupi. But I would think most people commenting here aren't as badly informed as you try to label them here and are aware about what they are talking. Different opinions arise, something normal.
Different opinions, you're right. But how many of the posters here do have read the article in l'Equipe? Because that's the bottom line of the issue, isn't it? So, if all the posters I'm allegedly trying to label as badly informed, as you say, have read that article, then, it's fine for me. Yet, I'm more than sceptical. Otherwise, they would have been able to point out that even the very respectable Guardian has made a mistake, hinting at urine tests, whereas only blood tests have been referred too, all through the original article. Nice try, you're right.
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