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Old 06-06-2014, 04:19 PM   #46
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Well, again, depending on the definition. Free will is generally defined as having the ability to choose differently between two or more options. What neuroscientists argue is that this is not true: given the same conditions, you could not have chosen any differently, even if you think you could have. In any case, scientific evidence seems to suggest that our conscious mind, i.e. we, don't have free will.
Sounds like a lot of hot air, some decisions sometimes take months or years even, who does the thinking during all that time?
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Sounds like a lot of hot air, some decisions sometimes take months or years even, who does the thinking during all that time?

The time is irrelevant. The point remains that you could not make a different decision regardless. There are plenty of scientific articles discussing this, there are arguments for and against, though the consensus seems to be that free will doesn't exist.


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Old 06-06-2014, 06:13 PM   #48
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
The time is irrelevant. The point remains that you could not make a different decision regardless. There are plenty of scientific articles discussing this, there are arguments for and against, though the consensus seems to be that free will doesn't exist.
That's pretty wild conclusion for something that is poorly understood at best or as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, what exactly supports that?
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Well, again, depending on the definition. Free will is generally defined as having the ability to choose differently between two or more options. What neuroscientists argue is that this is not true: given the same conditions, you could not have chosen any differently, even if you think you could have. In any case, scientific evidence seems to suggest that our conscious mind, i.e. we, don't have free will.
scientific speculation.

this could be speculation only, nothing else.

obvious choices perhaps could be predicted if someone has the zillion books of one's life experiences, feelings and genetical predispositions, yet on close calls, it is always a battle between two stronger sets of knowledge, excluding each other, so at times it's an absolute coin toss and it's absolutely unpredictable.

And stating the inverse can only be speculation, as it is absolutely impossible to prove as a first and not having n inverse theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

At least imo
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:44 PM   #50
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
The time is irrelevant. The point remains that you could not make a different decision regardless. There are plenty of scientific articles discussing this, there are arguments for and against, though the consensus seems to be that free will doesn't exist.
Well, just as I thought. I've checked what Wikipedia says for 'Neuroscience of free will' and it's by no means conclusive - there's plenty of criticism - and there's absolutely no 'consensus that free will doesn't exist'.

Moreover, all experiments performed are dealing with the simplest of actions like moving a finger and are heavily based both on interpretations of the subject and interpretation of scientist conducting the experiment; lastly, complex thought processes and planning are not even investigated, so you're pretty much rushing here to conclude something that has nowhere near conclusive evidence, not by a country mile
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Old 06-07-2014, 04:18 AM   #51
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
That's pretty wild conclusion for something that is poorly understood at best or as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, what exactly supports that?
The extraordinary claim that there is free will requires extraordinary evidence and so far I have seen no evidence in that regard, only people's subjective opinions on the matter.


A good notion of physics is all that is required to understand there is no such thing as free will: it's just particles interacting with particles.


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You misunderstood me. My point was that the fact that an outcome is uncertain (be it because it is among 2, 6, or an infinite number of possible outcomes) does not disprove determinism. Determinism does not say that you can predict what will happen for the rest of time, but that our actions are determined by biological, social and other factors of the world surrounding us.

If I have understood it correctly, determinism is not "psycho-history" (for those who have read Asimov).


I still do not think it is the correct position, though.
Yes, you do understand the problem correctly.

The Heisenberg Principle states that conjugated observables (for example: position and momentum) cannot be known to 100% accuracy at the same time. This is a theoretical limit at the quantum level. So indeed it is impossible to predict the future to 100% accuracy. There is allways a degree of uncertainty and this is why these kinds of problems are treated with probabilities.

As you said, however, this does not disprove determinism. Everything that happens, at the end of the day, couldn't have happened any other way: it's all part of a causal chain.

Coming to terms with this realisation is an all other issue though. I understand your situation. I have gone through the same thing a few years ago. It is one thing to understand there is no free will from an objective point of view, it is an whole other thing to "feel" it is so. What finally triggered my realisation were some texts from a website a guy linked to me, but I can't remember which site it was anymore. It explained the issue with examples from real life situations, and I don't know, the writer just said the right words which finally convinced me. It is a complete mindfuck once you realise there is no free will and I can tell you I was a bit paranoid in the first few days/weeks with every action I was taking, but gradually the paranoia wears out and you go back to functioning like before in your everyday life.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:55 AM   #52
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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The extraordinary claim that there is free will requires extraordinary evidence and so far I have seen no evidence in that regard, only people's subjective opinions on the matter.
Ok then, it's only subjective opinions - btw, why did you write in this topic? Was it just particles logging you into MTF? However, then you proceed to say that you were 'convinced' by some guy who sent you some text, in other words, you were convinced by somebody's subjective opinion, all it took was someone's clever text, not physics certainly.
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“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”

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Old 06-07-2014, 12:34 PM   #53
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by redshift36188 View Post
Everything that happens, at the end of the day, couldn't have happened any other way: it's all part of a causal chain.

Coming to terms with this realisation is an all other issue though. I understand your situation. I have gone through the same thing a few years ago. It is one thing to understand there is no free will from an objective point of view, it is an whole other thing to "feel" it is so. What finally triggered my realisation were some texts from a website a guy linked to me, but I can't remember which site it was anymore. It explained the issue with examples from real life situations, and I don't know, the writer just said the right words which finally convinced me. It is a complete mindfuck once you realise there is no free will and I can tell you I was a bit paranoid in the first few days/weeks with every action I was taking, but gradually the paranoia wears out and you go back to functioning like before in your everyday life.
I have two questions for you:

1. How do you deal with the issue of unfalsifiability? Is there any evidence which can be adduced to disprove determinism?

2. Doesn't the negation of free will also negate personal responsibility? If I go out and commit a crime, I bear none of the blame, since my actions were obviously completely dictated by factors outside of myself?
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:36 PM   #54
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

So we're no longer at the mercy of God, we're at the mercy of our brains? Interesting.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:44 PM   #55
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So we're no longer at the mercy of God, we're at the mercy of our brains? Interesting.
It's an even worse form of dictatorship apparently. At least God used to allow for free will while we are on Earth.
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Old 06-07-2014, 06:09 PM   #56
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Well, just as I thought. I've checked what Wikipedia says for 'Neuroscience of free will' and it's by no means conclusive - there's plenty of criticism - and there's absolutely no 'consensus that free will doesn't exist'.

Moreover, all experiments performed are dealing with the simplest of actions like moving a finger and are heavily based both on interpretations of the subject and interpretation of scientist conducting the experiment; lastly, complex thought processes and planning are not even investigated, so you're pretty much rushing here to conclude something that has nowhere near conclusive evidence, not by a country mile
Yes indeed I have misunderstood the evidence for the case. I've probably read too many articles against and believed them, though the sources have always been scientific . In any case, it's an interesting argument .
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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

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Old 06-07-2014, 08:35 PM   #57
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

If there is freewill, you can't explain the absurd behaviors of some of the MTF members
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:42 PM   #58
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If there is freewill, you can't explain the absurd behaviors of some of the MTF members
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:45 PM   #59
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:46 PM   #60
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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I believe the current view based on evidence (in neuroscience) is that free will is indeed an illusion. What this essentially means is that in any given point in time you could not have chosen differently than you did. Also, I have understood that evidence also suggests that your brain makes decisions before you are aware of them. I.e. your brain has already decided what it is going to do and then your conscious brain becomes aware of it and "makes the decision".
Pure and utter bullshit. No psychological, social, or metaphysical pressure stopped me from dropping this notebook onto the floor, stepping on it, and ripping it apart with my feet. See? I did this by myself. My unconscious brain certainly did not pre-decide for me to do that, that would be retarded.
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