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Old 06-05-2014, 07:50 PM   #31
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

I thought Will had already been freed.

I think it is time whales started looking after themselves, so the next time he gets himself in trouble we should just let him rot.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
Sam Harris needs to define what "free will" is in his eyes.

Coz the way i see it, he claims that our decisions are based on what we know. Which is our free will nevertheless in my eyes that is..

You're walking in the woods and the path splits in two identical ones, which one do i take?

I'd take the left one, coz i've been luckier when choosing the left side in previous situations.

If that's not my free will, then who's will is it lol

We are the sum of several factors in life that have shaped us the way we are and that's why any decision we take would be based on what we know, but what would this have to do with our will not being "free"?

Is "free" a good or bad thing? If it is a good thing, then why is my feeling that 100% uneducated decisions would most of the time turn wrong? Oh, interesting fuzzy big moving thing, i'll go hug it...eaten by a grizzly...lol

If free will is the conscious of a baby made in a lab out of non genetical material, then i'd rather have "imprisoned" or "dictated" will..
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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
I think his view is ludicrous, though I'm not neuroscientist either. Your brain is not some foreign object, that's a part of who you are as well, and I don't think it's necessary to decide about breathing and hunger and everything else to be able to call it free will.
I believe the current view based on evidence (in neuroscience) is that free will is indeed an illusion. What this essentially means is that in any given point in time you could not have chosen differently than you did. Also, I have understood that evidence also suggests that your brain makes decisions before you are aware of them. I.e. your brain has already decided what it is going to do and then your conscious brain becomes aware of it and "makes the decision".
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Also, I have understood that evidence also suggests that your brain makes decisions before you are aware of them. I.e. your brain has already decided what it is going to do and then your conscious brain becomes aware of it and "makes the decision".
So, your brain apparently has free will (it makes the decisions what it's going to do), but you do not.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
So, your brain apparently has free will (it makes the decisions what it's going to do), but you do not.
exactly the fun part - we don't have free will, but our brain does. Or if by some plot twist it doesn't too, then we're screwed coz it must be the US gov.

shit


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Old 06-05-2014, 11:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
You are making it sound way too complicated, it almost begs for the chicken munching guy, but I'll leave that for somebody else. You don't live in a vacuum, so it's normal to have various degree of impact from your surroundings, but that's only secondary, it's still you at the driving wheel and nobody else.
Yeah, I tried to make it sound complicated to make an unnecessarily complicated point about free will. On the most basic level, we are at the driving seat and in control of our fate.. but if you add together all the secondary influences and obstacles we face chipping away at us, just how much free will do we have left? I mean in different circumstances a murderer could have been a saint, or vice versa.

Tbh, even I want to argue with my own point here, so I wouldn't blame anyone for disagreeing with me.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
exactly the fun part - we don't have free will, but our brain does. Or if by some plot twist it doesn't too, then we're screwed coz it must be the US gov.

shit


Pretty sure the US gov lost the power to control our free will to the illuminati and hippies some time ago now..
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:02 AM   #37
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Sham Kay View Post
Pretty sure the US gov lost the power to control our free will to the illuminati and hippies some time ago now..
So it must be Putin now, he's beyond powerful as it seems

Anyhow, in each and every discussion i'vve been involved with, i have always maintained one very specific point - there must be a very concrete definition of the question asked.

When every word of the question is dissected and explained, there is normally one (or often also two) straight correct answer.

And that's why people don't specify their question fully and correctly, coz they don't want answers, but speculations and arguments, or they just don't know what they're asking, coz they fail to anticipate half of the possible answers.

About this specific matter, i believe what "free will" means should be veery thoroughly defined and then the answer will come by itself.


At the end of the day i believe we need to get more "physical" and realistic with this question, turning it to smth like - "How much does the media shape our opinions" for example, coz this one's an interesting discussion, everyone will claim it doesn't for him, yet TV, radio, internet, cinema - they all do exist, so..could be an interesting speculatron

Coz if we want to compare Universities' studies about the brain functions, without even knowing what we are trying to prove, it would get more dry and uninteresting.
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:16 AM   #38
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

I knew there had to be a bunch of cheap philosophy jokes on the Internet someplace:

How many philosophers does it take to change a light bulb?
It depends on how you define ‘change’.

How many existentialists does it take to change a light bulb?
Two – one to bemoan the darkness until the other redefines something else as light.

How many analytic philosophers does it take to change a light bulb?
None – its a pseudo-problem…light bulbs give off light (hence the name). If the bulb was broken and wasn’t giving off light, it wouldn’t be a ‘light bulb’ now would it?

How many Heraclitians does it take to change a light bulb?
None – it’s never the same light bulb again anyway

How many Epicureans does it take to change a light bulb?
None – they’re too busy taking advantage of the darkness.

How many Marxists does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. The lightbulb contains the seeds of its own revolution.

How many Nietzschians does it take to change a light bulb?
0.00001

How many Natural Selectionists does it take to change a lightbulb?
Well actually, we won’t even try to change the bulb. We will simply stop using the room that has the burned out bulb, and start using only rooms with functioning bulbs. That way, over time, ….

How many fatalists does it take to change a light bulb?
None, why fight it?

How many Humeans does it take to change a light bulb?
None – since the bulb actually contains a gaseous substance, and thus contains no ‘abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number’ nor any ‘experimental reasoning concerning matters of fact and existence’ it will simply be removed and thrown in the fire…

How many Kantians does it take to change a light bulb?
Two to change the phenomenal bulb; and one to explain that we might not have actually changed the bulb-an-sich at all.

How many theologians does it take to change a light bulb?
100 – one to change the bulb, and 99 to explain why an infinite God of love would allow darkness to occur in the world at all.
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:23 AM   #39
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sham Kay View Post
Yeah, I tried to make it sound complicated to make an unnecessarily complicated point about free will. On the most basic level, we are at the driving seat and in control of our fate.. but if you add together all the secondary influences and obstacles we face chipping away at us, just how much free will do we have left? I mean in different circumstances a murderer could have been a saint, or vice versa.
I think more than enough; of course you interact with your surroundings, but ultimately it's the murderer who pulls the trigger, not the surroundings.
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:30 AM   #40
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

So it's all about biology then? If my brain was transplanted into Fed, would he become a nice person?
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:33 AM   #41
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Surely Tyson On Da Grasse will provide a definitive answer on the show Cosmos.
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Old 06-06-2014, 01:16 AM   #42
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Oracle View Post
So it's all about biology then? If my brain was transplanted into Fed, would he become a nice person?
He'd hate himself if that happened since you are such a Fed hater. lol
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Old 06-06-2014, 11:43 AM   #43
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Of course.

And it's not that I 'believe', I'm just sure there's nothing that can take free will from me.
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:48 PM   #44
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Obviously.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:10 PM   #45
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Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
So, your brain apparently has free will (it makes the decisions what it's going to do), but you do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
exactly the fun part - we don't have free will, but our brain does. Or if by some plot twist it doesn't too, then we're screwed coz it must be the US gov.

shit


Well, again, depending on the definition. Free will is generally defined as having the ability to choose differently between two or more options. What neuroscientists argue is that this is not true: given the same conditions, you could not have chosen any differently, even if you think you could have. In any case, scientific evidence seems to suggest that our conscious mind, i.e. we, don't have free will.
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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
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