Do you believe in free will? - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 06-05-2014, 07:10 AM   #16
country flag latso
Registered User
 
latso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 37
Posts: 8,786
latso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

yes, i do believe in free will, within the box of natural and social rules.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abel View Post
Dimitrov will never win anything above 250 level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauletekis View Post
there won't be many WC matches that are going to be played at the same time of Wimby, but if I have to choose, WC will always come first by a long shot. Even if it's Argelia vs. South Korea.
no shit..

Quote:
Originally Posted by R0B1S View Post
Both as long as they don't overlap, but when they do - it's world cup every time for me.
NID
latso is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 06-05-2014, 07:27 AM   #17
country flag Time Violation
Slacker
 
Time Violation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mount Sharp
Age: 35
Posts: 11,763
Time Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sham Kay View Post
Thing is, one persons free will exists alongside everyone else's free will in the World, and we constantly clash and affect one another's life course, sometimes insignificantly, sometimes significantly. Each of us have affected millions of lives over the course of our own lives usually without knowing it and even without knowing most of these lives even exist.

I mean, the smallest decision can have a huge impact on another's life and change what would have been their will in the future, which in turn affects those connected to them and their decisions and so on in a massive snowball effect. It's a bit like bumper cars constantly whacking into each other, diverting one another from their original "intended" directions. We consciously decide to act upon our will as we drive forward with our lives and (mostly) affect others' life path (however small) and thereby in turn bring about different possibilities and decisions for them to make. This ends up creating a near infinite amount of possibilities and variances in play in every life. So it's hard to call it free will, even without going into how our will cannot really be free when most of our actions, opinions and decisions are influenced by our surroundings and experiences.

This makes the concept of determinism too difficult to fathom as we are right now. It's possible someday in the course of human evolution we may be able to understand or at least put this element of life into words, but the best we can do right now is come to the realisation that we have gaping holes in our understanding.

So now, if someone responded to my post with the fried chicken munching tl;dr guy, it would severely impact on the direction of my life and the set of decisions that will be available to me in the future. Same for the guy that responded, same for anyone else in this thread and same for anyone else who comes into some form of contact with us.
You are making it sound way too complicated, it almost begs for the chicken munching guy, but I'll leave that for somebody else. You don't live in a vacuum, so it's normal to have various degree of impact from your surroundings, but that's only secondary, it's still you at the driving wheel and nobody else.
__________________
“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
Time Violation is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 07:49 AM   #18
country flag latso
Registered User
 
latso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 37
Posts: 8,786
latso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

ultimately, i think Mr.Neru's line is absolutely awesome.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abel View Post
Dimitrov will never win anything above 250 level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauletekis View Post
there won't be many WC matches that are going to be played at the same time of Wimby, but if I have to choose, WC will always come first by a long shot. Even if it's Argelia vs. South Korea.
no shit..

Quote:
Originally Posted by R0B1S View Post
Both as long as they don't overlap, but when they do - it's world cup every time for me.
NID
latso is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 01:29 PM   #19
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKrep View Post
I don't think random chance is a problem for the theory of determinism (I am aware that there are actually a number of theories and versions of determinism but I'm speaking more or less generally here).

A determinist would basically say that even if there are two possible outcomes of an event, our reactions subsequent to that event will be equally unfree in both cases and will be determined wholly by our biology and other conditioning prior to that event. So the fact that the outcomes of some events (the roll of a dice for example) are uncertain does not strike me as an argument against determinism per se.
Randomness implies that there aren't 2 possible outcomes, but an unknown number of uncalculable outcomes.

Uncertainty is not the same as randomness.
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 01:31 PM   #20
country flag Gliese581
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Age: 23
Posts: 6,847
Gliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond reputeGliese581 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

asolutely i believe in free will.
Gliese581 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 01:32 PM   #21
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
ultimately, i think Mr.Neru's line is absolutely awesome.
Because it says that we're in control.
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 01:53 PM   #22
country flag latso
Registered User
 
latso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 37
Posts: 8,786
latso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
Because it says that we're in control.
it touches both worlds actually. gives us the benefit of willingness, yet states clearly that our will is to be taken freely, yet based on circumstances we are given and couldn't possibly change.

It's a theme to write a hundred pages on
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abel View Post
Dimitrov will never win anything above 250 level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauletekis View Post
there won't be many WC matches that are going to be played at the same time of Wimby, but if I have to choose, WC will always come first by a long shot. Even if it's Argelia vs. South Korea.
no shit..

Quote:
Originally Posted by R0B1S View Post
Both as long as they don't overlap, but when they do - it's world cup every time for me.
NID
latso is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 01:55 PM   #23
country flag Collective
Registered User
 
Collective's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 551
Collective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond reputeCollective has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Sam Harris argues that free will is an illusion. I am not very articulate in English so I borrowed the following explanation of Sam Harris's position from the ELI5 subreddit (reddit.com/r/eli5)

Quote:
Everything you perceive is as a direct result of external stimuli. So even your innermost thoughts have an outward cause, and that cause is ultimately out of your control. Even something as simple as "do I eat the chocolate now, or wait until after dinner?" will be decided by a million other factors, such as subtle gene influences, the way your personality has been shaped over the years, your metabolism, the time of day, the weather, maybe some "fat joke" comments someone made about you, etc.

He comes up with a very simple experiment to try and demonstrate this:
Think of one person you know, and concentrate on their name.

Now, explain why you chose that specific person, rather than the dozens and dozens of other people you know. Most people want to say "Well... I just chose them!" but neuro-physiologically, we know that's not true. That memory is manufactured by your brain, and you are merely the recipient of it.
I found the position very provocative and interesting. Ultimately, if free will is an illusion, we are probably more than OK realizing it.
__________________
"The sentence for murder attempt should be the same as for murder. Otherwise, we are just rewarding incompetence"

-Scott Adams-
Collective is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 01:59 PM   #24
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
it touches both worlds actually. gives us the benefit of willingness, yet states clearly that our will is to be taken freely, yet based on circumstances we are given and couldn't possibly change.

It's a theme to write a hundred pages on
What I care is what is it based on, apart from the pleasing notion that we're in control and everything is nice and fluffy.
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 02:08 PM   #25
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collective View Post
Sam Harris argues that free will is an illusion. I am not very articulate in English so I borrowed the following explanation of Sam Harris's position from the ELI5 subreddit (reddit.com/r/eli5)



I found the position very provocative and interesting. Ultimately, if free will is an illusion, we are probably more than OK realizing it.
I definitely agree with his views expressed within that quote. Haven't read his book, though. So can't comment on his position.

Before discussing free will, I think it is crucial to understand some basic, underlying principles of how the brain works. I'm no neuroscientist, but I realize that 'we' don't control our entire brain. Most of it pretty much runs on auto-pilot, informs us about what it's doing and we interpret it as our own decision, even though we weren't in control when it happened.
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 02:25 PM   #26
country flag @Sweet Cleopatra
Registered User
 
@Sweet Cleopatra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: in your nightmares
Posts: 5,097
@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute@Sweet Cleopatra has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

yes
__________________
...... .........♥..♥... .. ...........♥..♥.. ♥
...........♥......... ...♥. ..♥...♥................♥
..........♥.......... ..... ... ♥......
................♥
..........♥.......... .............................♥ .
...........♥......... ..... ...........♥..♥.....♥....♥
..............♥...... ..... ........♥..........♥.........♥
...............
..♥... ..... .........♥......♥..........♥
..................... ♥.... ...........♥♥........... ♥
..................... ....♥ ........♥♥...♥.....♥
..................... ..... .....♥........... ♥Rafa Fan 4ever
@Sweet Cleopatra is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 03:50 PM   #27
country flag BlackeyeVuk
Registered User
 
BlackeyeVuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Belgrade
Age: 28
Posts: 986
BlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond reputeBlackeyeVuk has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

My life is a joke. My girlfriend is controlling me with boobs and booty.
__________________
http://oi45.tinypic.com/30kbm90.jpg

Im no fan, nor im proud of anyone.
I just cheer for good tennis player. Im a cheerladie or golddigger whatever-"flout"-your-boat
I made a pun! Yey.
BlackeyeVuk is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 03:51 PM   #28
country flag latso
Registered User
 
latso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 37
Posts: 8,786
latso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collective View Post
Sam Harris argues that free will is an illusion. I am not very articulate in English so I borrowed the following explanation of Sam Harris's position from the ELI5 subreddit (reddit.com/r/eli5)



I found the position very provocative and interesting. Ultimately, if free will is an illusion, we are probably more than OK realizing it.
Sam Harris needs to define what "free will" is in his eyes.

Coz the way i see it, he claims that our decisions are based on what we know. Which is our free will nevertheless in my eyes that is..

You're walking in the woods and the path splits in two identical ones, which one do i take?

I'd take the left one, coz i've been luckier when choosing the left side in previous situations.

If that's not my free will, then who's will is it lol

We are the sum of several factors in life that have shaped us the way we are and that's why any decision we take would be based on what we know, but what would this have to do with our will not being "free"?

Is "free" a good or bad thing? If it is a good thing, then why is my feeling that 100% uneducated decisions would most of the time turn wrong? Oh, interesting fuzzy big moving thing, i'll go hug it...eaten by a grizzly...lol

If free will is the conscious of a baby made in a lab out of non genetical material, then i'd rather have "imprisoned" or "dictated" will..
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abel View Post
Dimitrov will never win anything above 250 level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauletekis View Post
there won't be many WC matches that are going to be played at the same time of Wimby, but if I have to choose, WC will always come first by a long shot. Even if it's Argelia vs. South Korea.
no shit..

Quote:
Originally Posted by R0B1S View Post
Both as long as they don't overlap, but when they do - it's world cup every time for me.
NID
latso is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 04:08 PM   #29
country flag Time Violation
Slacker
 
Time Violation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mount Sharp
Age: 35
Posts: 11,763
Time Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond reputeTime Violation has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I definitely agree with his views expressed within that quote. Haven't read his book, though. So can't comment on his position.

Before discussing free will, I think it is crucial to understand some basic, underlying principles of how the brain works. I'm no neuroscientist, but I realize that 'we' don't control our entire brain. Most of it pretty much runs on auto-pilot, informs us about what it's doing and we interpret it as our own decision, even though we weren't in control when it happened.
I think his view is ludicrous, though I'm not neuroscientist either. Your brain is not some foreign object, that's a part of who you are as well, and I don't think it's necessary to decide about breathing and hunger and everything else to be able to call it free will.
__________________
“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
Time Violation is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 06:26 PM   #30
country flag MichaelKrep
Registered User
 
MichaelKrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,635
MichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
Randomness implies that there aren't 2 possible outcomes, but an unknown number of uncalculable outcomes.

Uncertainty is not the same as randomness.
You misunderstood me. My point was that the fact that an outcome is uncertain (be it because it is among 2, 6, or an infinite number of possible outcomes) does not disprove determinism. Determinism does not say that you can predict what will happen for the rest of time, but that our actions are determined by biological, social and other factors of the world surrounding us.

If I have understood it correctly, determinism is not "psycho-history" (for those who have read Asimov).

I still do not think it is the correct position, though.
__________________

Grigor Dimitrov Newest Member of Top 10
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga | Marcos Baghdatis

Andy Murray | Alexandr Dolgopolov | Milos Raonic
Pistol Pete
MichaelKrep is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios