Do you believe in free will? - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 06-04-2014, 11:39 PM   #1
country flag MichaelKrep
Registered User
 
MichaelKrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,583
MichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond repute
Default Do you believe in free will?

This question just popped into my head as I was walking home tonight and I thought I would get you guys' and gals' opinion on the subject.

Do you believe that we have truly free will or do you subscribe to the notion that all events are somehow pre-programmed and could not have happened any other way (determinism).

I personally do believe we have free will. The idea that things could not have happened any other way may be comforting in some situations, but at the same time it is a completely unfalsifiable claim. There is no evidence that one can adduce to disprove that notion, at least as far as I am aware.

On the other hand, we see people doing unpredictable things all the time and we see seemingly random and out-of-the-blue events occur.

What do you think?
__________________

Grigor Dimitrov Newest Member of Top 10
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga | Marcos Baghdatis

Andy Murray | Alexandr Dolgopolov | Milos Raonic
Pistol Pete

Last edited by MichaelKrep : 06-04-2014 at 11:41 PM.
MichaelKrep is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 06-04-2014, 11:52 PM   #2
country flag Sham Kay
Lurrrkin'
 
Sham Kay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 25
Posts: 11,371
Sham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Yeah sure. I have messed around with the idea that death results in our lives just restarting and happening the exact same way again and again ad infinitum. But, that's a rather depressing thought unless your life is just jizzin' awesome.

For example I was thinking of posting in this thread, decided against it, came back and typed this up. Said screw it, but copied the post anyway, came back a minute later and pasted back and posted it. I mean.. Could I have acted differently? Sure. Could've shut the laptop and done something better with my 5 minutes. Surely that's free will. Then again, we'll never really know.
Sham Kay is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2014, 11:56 PM   #3
country flag Pablo23
Registered User
 
Pablo23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 20
Posts: 1,713
Pablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond reputePablo23 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

As you said, even if I believed that we have no free will, I couldn't prove that in any way I can think of. Randomness, and the limitations of our knowledge don't have much to do with it... anyway, it's still one of the big daddies of philosophy, so pretty much beyond by (mediocre) grasp on the subject.

I believe we have free will, have nothing to support that belief. I choose this, based on a (curiously not so full of holes) Free-will version of Pascal's Wager. I find it much better to live based on the assumption that I have free will and my choices matter.
__________________
Tommy Haas

Roger Federer - Stan Wawrinka - Jerzy Janowicz - Lleyton Hewitt - Dominic Thiem


TT Singles [ Gen. Rank: #152 / Best Rank: #152] [ Titles: - ] [ Finals: ATP Bastad '14 ]
TT Doubles [ Gen. Rank: #165 / Best Rank: #164] [ Titles: León '14 ] [ Finals: New Delhi '14 - Busan '14 ] --> with MachineGun

Playing since Dec. 30 2013. Last Update July 14 2014
Pablo23 is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:01 AM   #4
country flag Moonball Pusher
Registered User
 
Moonball Pusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,470
Moonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond reputeMoonball Pusher has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Of course we do
__________________
Tennis Fan

Federer - Isner - Gulbis - Dimitrov - Thiem
Tennis disgraces: Nadal, Ferrer, Fognini

Fantasy Tennis Manager

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed of Light View Post
Thank You Rafa.... Thank You For Everything, I Owe My Entire Life To You Rafa, You Are My God You Are My God You Are My God, My Life Is Blessed Now That You Inhibit This Earth, Thanks Rafa
Moonball Pusher is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:08 AM   #5
country flag MichaelKrep
Registered User
 
MichaelKrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,583
MichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo23 View Post
I believe we have free will, have nothing to support that belief. I choose this, based on a (curiously not so full of holes) Free-will version of Pascal's Wager. I find it much better to live based on the assumption that I have free will and my choices matter.
I don't know, it's not even about mattering or not, it's about whether our choices are choices at all.

But my reason for believing in free will is probably similar to yours, just a gut feeling that us humans are not so predictable as determinism would have us believe.
__________________

Grigor Dimitrov Newest Member of Top 10
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga | Marcos Baghdatis

Andy Murray | Alexandr Dolgopolov | Milos Raonic
Pistol Pete
MichaelKrep is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:20 AM   #6
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

The term 'pre-programmed' sort of implies there is no element of chance involved, which I don't think is true.

There's no unlimited free will, as our actions are mostly a product of our environment, our genes and our unconscious mind.

Then again pure determinism ignores the fact that in life random events lead to unpredictable chains of events that change the objective reality for everyone and our actions and the consequences of those actions, etc., can all diverge in unexpected ways.

At least, that's the case as long as randomness exists and as long as our current understanding of neuroscience and genetics is true.

But, of course, the key aspects of any of these philosophical positions are unfalsifiable.
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:22 AM   #7
country flag Crustaceok
Registered User
 
Crustaceok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 832
Crustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond reputeCrustaceok has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

"Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will"

Jawaharlal Nehru
__________________
Wawrinka - Del Potro - Haas - Tsonga - Cuevas - Monfils - Mayer - Carreńo - Berlocq

Garin - Lama - Jarry - Podlipnik - Malla


Tennis Tipping (actual/best)
Singles: 135/135 - W: Tianjin CH / RU: Rovinj Fut, Gimcheon CH
Doubles (w/Chilenaitor): 155/155 - W: Kyoto CH, Samarkand CH / RU: Rimouski CH, Vicenza CH, Bucharest Fut
Crustaceok is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:30 AM   #8
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo23 View Post
I find it much better to live based on the assumption that I have free will and my choices matter.
Finding something better is not a very good argument, though.

If someone thinks he's a carrot and lies in the garden naked, it doesn't really make it true.

What is your counter-argument to genetics/environment and the theory that your mind, your personality ('you', essentially) is limited to a specific part of the brain, which has evolved very recently (on an evolutionary timescale)? Which, btw, explains the lack of self-awareness in most animals?

How about the fact that your brain makes decisions before you report having made that decision (this has been scientifically tested with various reaction tests, where the subject is asked to push a button only to find out that your brain has decided to push the button before 'you' yourself did).
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:32 AM   #9
country flag Namejs
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 83
Namejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond reputeNamejs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crustaceok View Post
"Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will"

Jawaharlal Nehru
Too bad that your brain is the one who decides how you're going to play that card.

And that you sort of inherited 100% of it from your folks.
Namejs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 12:56 AM   #10
country flag MichaelKrep
Registered User
 
MichaelKrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,583
MichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
Then again pure determinism ignores the fact that in life random events lead to unpredictable chains of events that change the objective reality for everyone and our actions and the consequences of those actions, etc., can all diverge in unexpected ways.

At least, that's the case as long as randomness exists and as long as our current understanding of neuroscience and genetics is true.
I don't think random chance is a problem for the theory of determinism (I am aware that there are actually a number of theories and versions of determinism but I'm speaking more or less generally here).

A determinist would basically say that even if there are two possible outcomes of an event, our reactions subsequent to that event will be equally unfree in both cases and will be determined wholly by our biology and other conditioning prior to that event. So the fact that the outcomes of some events (the roll of a dice for example) are uncertain does not strike me as an argument against determinism per se.
__________________

Grigor Dimitrov Newest Member of Top 10
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga | Marcos Baghdatis

Andy Murray | Alexandr Dolgopolov | Milos Raonic
Pistol Pete
MichaelKrep is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 02:28 AM   #11
country flag miura88
Registered User
 
miura88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,023
miura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond reputemiura88 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

I do believe I make my own decisions, though I don't know if that's due to rational thought or primitive emotion.

We all construct a method of processing and dealing with the world as it attacks all our senses.
__________________
After all, history only tastes bitter to those who expect it to be sugar coated
miura88 is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 02:44 AM   #12
country flag buddyholly
RAVE ON
 
buddyholly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: LUBBOCK TX
Posts: 13,965
buddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond reputebuddyholly has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKrep View Post

A determinist would basically say that even if there are two possible outcomes of an event, our reactions subsequent to that event will be equally unfree in both cases and will be determined wholly by our biology and other conditioning prior to that event. So the fact that the outcomes of some events (the roll of a dice for example) are uncertain does not strike me as an argument against determinism per se.
Sheldon played with that concept on the Big Bang Theory. Every decision he made was determined by the roll of a dice. But he chose to live like that of his own free will.
__________________
JOIN THE CHURCH OF THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER TODAY
buddyholly is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 02:52 AM   #13
country flag Sham Kay
Lurrrkin'
 
Sham Kay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 25
Posts: 11,371
Sham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond reputeSham Kay has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Thing is, one persons free will exists alongside everyone else's free will in the World, and we constantly clash and affect one another's life course, sometimes insignificantly, sometimes significantly. Each of us have affected millions of lives over the course of our own lives usually without knowing it and even without knowing most of these lives even exist.

I mean, the smallest decision can have a huge impact on another's life and change what would have been their will in the future, which in turn affects those connected to them and their decisions and so on in a massive snowball effect. It's a bit like bumper cars constantly whacking into each other, diverting one another from their original "intended" directions. We consciously decide to act upon our will as we drive forward with our lives and (mostly) affect others' life path (however small) and thereby in turn bring about different possibilities and decisions for them to make. This ends up creating a near infinite amount of possibilities and variances in play in every life. So it's hard to call it free will, even without going into how our will cannot really be free when most of our actions, opinions and decisions are influenced by our surroundings and experiences.

This makes the concept of determinism too difficult to fathom as we are right now. It's possible someday in the course of human evolution we may be able to understand or at least put this element of life into words, but the best we can do right now is come to the realisation that we have gaping holes in our understanding.

So now, if someone responded to my post with the fried chicken munching tl;dr guy, it would severely impact on the direction of my life and the set of decisions that will be available to me in the future. Same for the guy that responded, same for anyone else in this thread and same for anyone else who comes into some form of contact with us.
Sham Kay is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 05:38 AM   #14
country flag Johnny Groove
Future ATP Star
 
Johnny Groove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Florida
Age: 24
Posts: 35,114
Johnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Fuckin' right I believe in free will
__________________
Respect the Laws of MTF
Brush up on your tennis history, people- Top 101 Tennis Players of all Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
What do you like doing on MTF most?
Reading Johnny Groove threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Johnny blurs the line between grandeur and grandiose
Johnny Groove is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2014, 05:46 AM   #15
country flag SheepleBuster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,699
SheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond reputeSheepleBuster has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Do you believe in free will?

Free will is an illusion. You are a slave to the system maintained by the architects of control regardless. I don't believe things are predetermined. That's silly. But I do believe there is no blue or red pill. They are both nasty and lead to the same place
__________________


Suarez & Nadal : True Trailblazers in Sports

Arjen Robben ... Soccer's version of ATP's biggest faker!
SheepleBuster is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios