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Old 06-09-2014, 12:44 PM   #211
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Wow, from the most recent posts I am beginning to feel that if the thread is flooded with posts on why the caste system will never go away, then that view will prevail, just by the volume of support.

I am more interested in what is done under the umbrella of the caste system. My morning paper has an article by Amana Fontanella-Kahn. She writes that when the father of one of the two girls ***** and hanged recently went to the police, the first question asked was "What is your caste?" When he revealed he was of a lower caste the police officers mocked him and refused to do anything about his missing daughter. This report to the police was made before the girls were found hanging in a tree.
In this case, the names of the accused brothers are Pappu Yadav, Awadhesh Yadav and Urvesh Yadav. The name of the head of the police station is Ram Vilas Yadav.

Yet you prefer to flood the thread with assertions that the Dalits are the privileged caste.
Oh my! Now I'm starting to think that you are either trolling or have made up your mind and not interested in actually finding out the truth. For the last time, nobody here is denying that a lot of bad things happen in many places to people from "backward" castes simply because of their caste. Nobody here is promoting said discrimination. Nobody is saying they are privileged. All we are saying is they receive a certain privileges, which play a big role in why caste system can not simply be ignored no matter how many "upper" caste people want it so. (And in my last post and Avi13's last post, we further tried to explain to you how prominent castism is in different parts of the country.)

Just answer one question, does employment equity in Canada ( The Act states that "employment equity means more than treating persons the same way but also requires special measures and the accommodation of differences.") make the concerned group of people privileged?
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:48 PM   #212
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

Dont give Attention to these Clowns Buddyholly and that Obscure American Rat with a Nadal Avatar.
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:00 PM   #213
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

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Originally Posted by Pratik View Post

Just answer one question, does employment equity in Canada ( The Act states that "employment equity means more than treating persons the same way but also requires special measures and the accommodation of differences.") make the concerned group of people privileged?
That act is not intended to make job quotas for certain groups. It is designed to remove barriers to employment for certain groups of people.

For instance , there should be wheelchair access to an office building, so that people in wheelchairs can access the building. It does not mean that a certain percentage of people in wheelchairs must be employed in the building.
It is not designed to confer privilege, but to remove a barrier.

And again, the four groups: women, handicapped, aboriginals and visible minorities are groups that are made by nature.
The caste system invents groups that are made by man, and define social standing as something hereditary, which is cruel and unnatural. If man can make those artificial groups he can surely unmake them.
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:02 PM   #214
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

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Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
. Nobody is saying they are privileged. All we are saying is they receive a certain privileges,?
I think you have just ended the discussion by demonstrating how you have a total mental block when it comes to discussing the meaning of privilege.
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:23 PM   #215
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
Do you suggest a good book about Indian society or history? I am starting to be obsessed and want to know more before I judge.. Please help me..
Sure there are. In fact I recommend these books to you, Buddy Holly, and any other person interested in Indian culture. The first two of these books are authored by true sons of the soil (Pavan Varma, & Nobel Laurette in Economics Amartya Sen) in remarkable prose. The last one is a more distant view, by an Indian settled in the Caribbean, VS Naipaul, another Nobel Laurette, this time in literature, whose command on English prose needs no introduction at all.

India is a vast, beautiful land with a rich, heterogeneous culture. But what is this "culture", that we Indophiles love to talk about. A year back, my eyes fell on a lone copy of THE GREAT INDIAN MIDDLE CLASS on a bookshelf and I instinctively rushed it and purchased it. It fully explained to me why double hypocrisy is a rampant feature of this educated, aspirational class of India that holds the real reins of the country. Why they are selfish and uncaring, blind to the many social malaise that overwhelm the country and yet, with a religious fervour and self-righteousness of "doing the right thing". At the same time, why do they continue to preach to each other righteousness and morality while conveniently drifting away into consumerism. Also why must they hold on to their "culture" with iron fists and project it to the rest of the world, if it is in fact so cumbersome to actually follow? Why preach the teachings of "Duty" and still bribe the policeman with a self-righteous conduct? Why buy the best things for yourself and yet disdain materialism? Why talk about patriotism and runaway to settle in the USA? Why return and pretend to be superior to your relatives? The whole psychology of it. All these and many more things become clear on reading THE GREAT INDIAN MIDDLE CLASS. It is an absorbing study on how the Indian Middle Class came to be as the Author traces the the very foundation of the problem in Gandhi's interpretation of the Indian sacred text "Bhagwad Gita". Trust me, it is like solving a puzzle
In my case, its solved!


Next is THE ARGUMENTATIVE INDIAN that like the title tells you why do Indians love to argue so much.

Following is an extract from the reviewer David on goodreads.com.
Quote:
Despite all of this, The Argumentative Indian is a book I recommend to everyone with an interest not just in India, but also the slippery relationship between cultural uniqueness and so-called universal values. The book is a collection of wide-ranging essays - most of which were previously published elsewhere - that are difficult to encapsulate in a single thesis, but maybe it would be something along these lines: Just how Western are so-called Western values? Democracy, individual liberty, multi-cultural tolerance, secularism, reasoned debate. Are these values unique to Western culture or have they been excluded from shallow historical readings of other civilizations. Like India, for example.
You can find the link to his full review further below.

Finally is the 'view from the outside' you'll find in INDIA: A MILLION MUTINIES. Here is an extract to Litbug's review of the book:
Quote:
Take in every chapter without trying to form an opinion. Because every single episode is a personal story, a story ridden with all the chaos India is, but from a closer, and therefore, a much narrower view. To understand and appreciate India, you need to be an Eagle that circles for hours over a large landscape patiently, gradually, imperceptibly zooming in towards the earth in wide, slow gliding movements until you’re ready to swoop upon the target of your choice. Look at India from a giddying height where you can capture the view of the entire land, and you’ll miss out on the nuances that characterize the intricate threads of a maddening world. Zoom in real close, and you’ll notice all the fine weaves, but without the advantage of a fair, panoramic view.
Find the link to the whole review further below.


The Great Indian Middle Class:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/sho...on=true&page=1

The Argumentative Indian:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show...on=true&page=1

India: A Million Mutinies:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show...on=true&page=1
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Old 06-09-2014, 03:40 PM   #216
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
That act is not intended to make job quotas for certain groups. It is designed to remove barriers to employment for certain groups of people.

For instance , there should be wheelchair access to an office building, so that people in wheelchairs can access the building. It does not mean that a certain percentage of people in wheelchairs must be employed in the building.
It is not designed to confer privilege, but to remove a barrier.

And again, the four groups: women, handicapped, aboriginals and visible minorities are groups that are made by nature.
The caste system invents groups that are made by man, and define social standing as something hereditary, which is cruel and unnatural. If man can make those artificial groups he can surely unmake them.
Okay, that's my mistake. I didn't understand what the system in Canada was, so the comparison was incorrect.

As for the last part, I agree, castism is cruel and unnatural(though racism is cruel too) and it can be unmade. Only it can't just be ignored. Man made or not, abolishing an entire mindset from people's mind takes a lot of time. As I mentioned earlier, the only way this is possible is by development and education. I am 100% for abolishing the caste system. Only saying that it can not just be ignored. Removing it is an extremely long process which will take several generations at best. And as I mentioned in my last post, the man made argument only goes so far. You can't remove racism because of the physical colour difference. Similarly, you can't remove castism because of the difference in the names. Until that difference(in the names) is forgotten, it can not just be ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
I think you have just ended the discussion by demonstrating how you have a total mental block when it comes to discussing the meaning of privilege.
So if someone has had bad luck their whole life and luck shines on him for a brief period, would you call the person lucky as a whole?

If you were to look from a narrow perspective(reservation), yes they are privileged. But, you were extending that to a broad perspective, saying that we are claiming that they are privileged as a whole. Which we never did.

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Old 06-09-2014, 03:46 PM   #217
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger the Dodger View Post
Sure there are. In fact I recommend these books to you, Buddy Holly, and any other person interested in Indian culture. The first two of these books are authored by true sons of the soil (Pavan Varma, & Nobel Laurette in Economics Amartya Sen) in remarkable prose. The last one is a more distant view, by an Indian settled in the Caribbean, VS Naipaul, another Nobel Laurette, this time in literature, whose command on English prose needs no introduction at all.

India is a vast, beautiful land with a rich, heterogeneous culture. But what is this "culture", that we Indophiles love to talk about. A year back, my eyes fell on a lone copy of THE GREAT INDIAN MIDDLE CLASS on a bookshelf and I instinctively rushed it and purchased it. It fully explained to me why double hypocrisy is a rampant feature of this educated, aspirational class of India that holds the real reins of the country. Why they are selfish and uncaring, blind to the many social malaise that overwhelm the country and yet, with a religious fervour and self-righteousness of "doing the right thing". At the same time, why do they continue to preach to each other righteousness and morality while conveniently drifting away into consumerism. Also why must they hold on to their "culture" with iron fists and project it to the rest of the world, if it is in fact so cumbersome to actually follow? Why preach the teachings of "Duty" and still bribe the policeman with a self-righteous conduct? Why buy the best things for yourself and yet disdain materialism? Why talk about patriotism and runaway to settle in the USA? Why return and pretend to be superior to your relatives? The whole psychology of it. All these and many more things become clear on reading THE GREAT INDIAN MIDDLE CLASS. It is an absorbing study on how the Indian Middle Class came to be as the Author traces the the very foundation of the problem in Gandhi's interpretation of the Indian sacred text "Bhagwad Gita". Trust me, it is like solving a puzzle
In my case, its solved!


Next is THE ARGUMENTATIVE INDIAN that like the title tells you why do Indians love to argue so much.

Following is an extract from the reviewer David on goodreads.com.

You can find the link to his full review further below.

Finally is the 'view from the outside' you'll find in INDIA: A MILLION MUTINIES. Here is an extract to Litbug's review of the book:

Find the link to the whole review further below.


The Great Indian Middle Class:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/sho...on=true&page=1

The Argumentative Indian:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show...on=true&page=1

India: A Million Mutinies:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show...on=true&page=1


I haven't read either of the 3, but have heard many positive reviews about the first two.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:09 PM   #218
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger the Dodger View Post
Sure there are. In fact I recommend these books to you, Buddy Holly, and any other person interested in Indian culture. The first two of these books are authored by true sons of the soil (Pavan Varma, & Nobel Laurette in Economics Amartya Sen) in remarkable prose. The last one is a more distant view, by an Indian settled in the Caribbean, VS Naipaul, another Nobel Laurette, this time in literature, whose command on English prose needs no introduction at all.

India is a vast, beautiful land with a rich, heterogeneous culture. But what is this "culture", that we Indophiles love to talk about. A year back, my eyes fell on a lone copy of THE GREAT INDIAN MIDDLE CLASS on a bookshelf and I instinctively rushed it and purchased it. It fully explained to me why double hypocrisy is a rampant feature of this educated, aspirational class of India that holds the real reins of the country. Why they are selfish and uncaring, blind to the many social malaise that overwhelm the country and yet, with a religious fervour and self-righteousness of "doing the right thing". At the same time, why do they continue to preach to each other righteousness and morality while conveniently drifting away into consumerism. Also why must they hold on to their "culture" with iron fists and project it to the rest of the world, if it is in fact so cumbersome to actually follow? Why preach the teachings of "Duty" and still bribe the policeman with a self-righteous conduct? Why buy the best things for yourself and yet disdain materialism? Why talk about patriotism and runaway to settle in the USA? Why return and pretend to be superior to your relatives? The whole psychology of it. All these and many more things become clear on reading THE GREAT INDIAN MIDDLE CLASS. It is an absorbing study on how the Indian Middle Class came to be as the Author traces the the very foundation of the problem in Gandhi's interpretation of the Indian sacred text "Bhagwad Gita". Trust me, it is like solving a puzzle
In my case, its solved!


Next is THE ARGUMENTATIVE INDIAN that like the title tells you why do Indians love to argue so much.

Following is an extract from the reviewer David on goodreads.com.

You can find the link to his full review further below.

Finally is the 'view from the outside' you'll find in INDIA: A MILLION MUTINIES. Here is an extract to Litbug's review of the book:

Find the link to the whole review further below.


The Great Indian Middle Class:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/sho...on=true&page=1

The Argumentative Indian:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show...on=true&page=1

India: A Million Mutinies:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show...on=true&page=1
Thanks
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:43 AM   #219
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Default Re: India General Elections 2014

Yes i believe in what some Anglo-Saxon had said somewhere

"All Men are created Equal" Unless he is Negro or an Aborgine. These Anglo Saxons have destroyed the Native Population in Australia, Present Day America and where nots, they practise absolute racism.

Yet they talk as if they have their Final Word on Indian Caste System. Hypocrites of the highest Order.
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