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Old 10-13-2013, 12:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

Most posters that do not want moderators to participate in conversations are on the lower end of this.

They have a hard time with disassociating a post from the moderator badge and know that they would abuse their power if they were moderators so being on the low end of this, they can't think for themselves and then you get posters like the one speaking to Time Violation.
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Old 10-13-2013, 04:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

Posted this in GM. My opinions, nothing more.

As hysterical as TribalFusion may appear at first blush, he does raise a valid point about moderator participation. Their presence is felt when they enter a discussion and when they engage in heated debate. To some, even harmless debate can appear as bullying or intimidation. Some new mods feel they can engage in the same behaviors as regular members, whereas other mods seem to melt into the background so that their presence is not felt. I remember having heated exchanges with several members before they were mods, but now they choose not to be argumentative, even when they are in the right. In a way, I respect that.

Some mods have given up the job so they can be treated as regular members once again. The mod job is one that I'd never take as long as I felt I still had something to say. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Some would do well to return to their previous status so they can say what they want, like before. Of course there is no code of behavior, only common sense.

I'm all for mods participating in friendly discussion in non GM, but I think they have to give up the privilege of being passionate about tennis in GM
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Sham Kay View Post
Alright, let's see..

Obviously, the main aspect of being a mod is that they have to show complete impartiality when it comes to dealing with forumers and the various issues that arise around the forum. Anyone who is unable to be unbiased with their moderating should never become a moderator.

All moderators on this forum are forumers first - not people employed for the sole reason of moderating a forum like robots. They're fans of Tennis first and foremost and enjoy posting about it and about their favourites. As long as being a fan isn't affecting their moderating decisions, it shouldn't be a problem. If it does, then it is a serious matter that should be attended to.

I understand that you do not see it this way, and you want mods to not only moderate objectively, but to post objectively about Tennis, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.
I agree, Sham.
This is a free to join, free to post, free to express forum, and so is the moderating job that each member of the authority has voluntarily set time aside for. They can't be robots or slaves of this forum policy because they have priorities in real life too.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:36 AM   #19
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
What a load of crock. I simply stated my opinion, I didn't insult anyone, called names, nor did I use my mod powers to delete posts or prevent other people from posting; yet you almost immediately tried to prevent me from participating in the thread only because I'm a mod. That's called discrimination, and if you don't want to hear other opinions, well that's just too bad.
You seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding reasoning by analogy or the practice of extending an idea to understand why the principle doesn't hold up logically and therefore should be abandoned.

I'll explain it yet again: I didn't say or intimate that you had done the things you mention in your last post which would be obvious trollery. In fact I focused on something quite different which is the overall climate that is created in a forum when moderators are themselves immoderate (which is not to say that they are "trolls" as one poster above queried).

When moderators post often and as active fans of one player in particular and tend to turn a blind eye to the fierce partisans behind their favorites, they help create a climate. Again, this is not the same thing as being a "troll" but it is "immoderate" by any reasonable definition and I would suggest it doesn't do much to curb overall trollish nature of the forum to put it mildly.

I have deliberately avoided discussing your conduct in this thread but you seem hell bent on discussing it. Fine, let's have at it:

You post as much or more than many ordinary posters and very often the subject is Djokovic, your favorite player presumably. You don't make much of an effort to appear even handed or stop fans of Djokovic from hurling invective even if you yourself don't write the words. In fact, you behave like many typical MTF members in this regard. But again, they aren't moderators and you are.

See the problem? There is often an uncongenial climate and at times you contribute to it while not being an actual "troll" but by simply behaving more like an ordinary poster than a moderator with an eye towards dispassionate moderation.

When a moderator is in those threads and makes his presence felt and sees the trollery around him and says nothing, it empowers the real trolls to step it up and make their ridiculous comments over and over generally driving any reasoned discourse away from this forum (and other similarly moderated forums). Discourse suffers as a result.

A moderator and his actions have a greater weight than those of a normal poster by definition as it sets permissible standards of conduct by definition, again.

You seem to have problems with analogies but again there is a reason that judges try to keep themselves separate from the matters before them, even if they feel passionately about the topic. They can't just say, well I am a citizen too so I'll express myself along with the other advocates. Yes I know well this isn't a court but it's to establish a principle that I remind you of this.

I don't expect any moderator on a comparatively unimportant tennis forum to be entirely divorced from his preferences but you seem oblivious to the idea that one should even try.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
When a moderator is in those threads and makes his presence felt and sees the trollery around him and says nothing, it empowers the real trolls to step it up and make their ridiculous comments over and over generally driving any reasoned discourse away from this forum (and other similarly moderated forums). Discourse suffers as a result.
I don't recall an instance where a moderator warned a particular fanbase or posted something like "if the fans of Player X don't stop the hatefest..." and then listed some consequence.

Sometimes mods post "stay on topic or the thread will be locked" but that's about it, I don't see them dishing out their official warnings/scoldings in public posts. Apart from noticing that a post has been deleted, we don't know what action moderators have taken (or which moderator took the action). Maybe Time Violation has warned/infracted/banned lots of Djokovic fans, and you just don't know it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
Sometimes mods post "stay on topic or the thread will be locked" but that's about it, I don't see them dishing out their official warnings/scoldings in public posts. Apart from noticing that a post has been deleted, we don't know what action moderators have taken (or which moderator took the action). Maybe Time Violation has warned/infracted/banned lots of Djokovic fans, and you just don't know it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
I don't recall an instance where a moderator warned a particular fanbase or posted something like "if the fans of Player X don't stop the hatefest..." and then listed some consequence.

Sometimes mods post "stay on topic or the thread will be locked" but that's about it, I don't see them dishing out their official warnings/scoldings in public posts. Apart from noticing that a post has been deleted, we don't know what action moderators have taken (or which moderator took the action). Maybe Time Violation has warned/infracted/banned lots of Djokovic fans, and you just don't know it.
You didn't consider the rest of the post if you think that's all there is to it. What I said was that the moderator in question was participating right alongside the others, albeit not necessarily leading the way as it were.

In other words, this legitimates the conduct. Moreover at no point has he suggested that he was doing what you hypothesize as he doesn't see it to be a problem in the first instance and some in here seem to agree: they think being a moderator is pretty much like being another poster with a few administrative duties mixed in.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

Of course, there are 2 heavy trolling efforts by Fed fangroup supporters in this thread.

I was banned, but no one else was, so that's clear proof. It's no surprise that you can get banned several times if you compare a rule-breaking, drug-tolerant player to Michael Jackson or Daniel Koellerer, but it's ok to attack an mtf user by saying they're "messed up" & "low on the IQ list". It's also legitimate to let most GM people call Djokovic a lowly player with incessant fake injuries. It's ironic that the mods supported the players that used the media lies to make Djokovic look like a criminal.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
When a moderator is in those threads and makes his presence felt and sees the trollery around him and says nothing, it empowers the real trolls to step it up and make their ridiculous comments over and over generally driving any reasoned discourse away from this forum (and other similarly moderated forums). Discourse suffers as a result.

A moderator and his actions have a greater weight than those of a normal poster by definition as it sets permissible standards of conduct by definition, again.

You seem to have problems with analogies but again there is a reason that judges try to keep themselves separate from the matters before them, even if they feel passionately about the topic. They can't just say, well I am a citizen too so I'll express myself along with the other advocates. Yes I know well this isn't a court but it's to establish a principle that I remind you of this.

I don't expect any moderator on a comparatively unimportant tennis forum to be entirely divorced from his preferences but you seem oblivious to the idea that one should even try.
You have no idea how much whining, drama and tirades we have received or have had to read because some of the heavyweight trolls were banned and/or their posts were deleted. If you have ever noticed some people sporting North Korean flags/images, it wasn't because of their enamorment with the dear leader, but for their protest or 'protest'. And if every single trollish post were to be deleted, there would've been a riot here or the forum would've been half-deserted. This is not a strictly technical forum and there needs to be some balance, so yes, some people will sometimes get away with their stuff. Those who persist will be banned sooner or later.

I'm not sure whether I should be flattered that my few posts a day create a climate on a forum with over 13 million posts, it's amusing if nothing else Long story short, yes I am a fan and no, I don't think that's making me do a poor "job". I have no problem of quitting it though if there are numerous users having a problem with it; so far mostly it's just you who is having a problem with it.
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
You have no idea how much whining, drama and tirades we have received or have had to read because some of the heavyweight trolls were banned and/or their posts were deleted. If you have ever noticed some people sporting North Korean flags/images, it wasn't because of their enamorment with the dear leader, but for their protest or 'protest'. And if every single trollish post were to be deleted, there would've been a riot here or the forum would've been half-deserted. This is not a strictly technical forum and there needs to be some balance, so yes, some people will sometimes get away with their stuff. Those who persist will be banned sooner or later.

I'm not sure whether I should be flattered that my few posts a day create a climate on a forum with over 13 million posts, it's amusing if nothing else Long story short, yes I am a fan and no, I don't think that's making me do a poor "job". I have no problem of quitting it though if there are numerous users having a problem with it; so far mostly it's just you who is having a problem with it.

You insist on making this personal. It isn't; your behavior in that thread was clearly partisan (as you have been elsewhere where Djokovic is concerned). It encouraged people to collectively dump on me for statements which were later echoed by all kinds of people in the matches which followed in other threads regarding Djokovic's odd attitude (and I never used terms like "diva" or even hinted at a personal dislike of the player in my original posts).

It was this which occasioned my questions about moderation in general. My intent is not for this or that moderator to quit and if you think it's so then you're really skipping over the bulk of what I am writing.

I am certain any moderator here has to deal with a lot given the nature of tennis or even sports forums more generally but it's burying your head in the sand to think that the attitude that moderators take in their own public posting in the GM can't have any impact on the climate or what other posters view as permissible.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
You insist on making this personal. It isn't; your behavior in that thread was clearly partisan (as you have been elsewhere where Djokovic is concerned). It encouraged people to collectively dump on me for statements which were later echoed by all kinds of people in the matches which followed in other threads regarding Djokovic's odd attitude (and I never used terms like "diva" or even hinted at a personal dislike of the player in my original posts).
What? Are you going to tell me you've read my every post here, since you claim to know about all threads elsewhere? Or you're just making a nice sweeping generalization? Moreover, I didn't encourage anyone, that's your jumping to conclusions, people wrote what they usually write, whether I was there too hardly mattered. Again, you're bent on preventing me having an opinion, and to be specific, we weren't discussing about Djokovic's attitude in general, but iirc on a very specific point about him complaining about every well played shot by his opponent. I have watched the whole match and I'm well within my rights to express my opinion about what was going on there. If you are trying to spin that so I'm "partisan", that's your problem.
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

If you feel that a mod has broken a site rule, report the post. It's as simple as that. You don't become a different person when you're promoted to mod, you just accept that you have to be more objectional and can't punish users simply because you dislike them.

If a mod did have ill-intentions, believe me, the other mods would notice. And it wouldn't be allowed to continue. As far as I can tell, our mods are doing a great job.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
What? Are you going to tell me you've read my every post here, since you claim to know about all threads elsewhere? Or you're just making a nice sweeping generalization? Moreover, I didn't encourage anyone, that's your jumping to conclusions, people wrote what they usually write, whether I was there too hardly mattered. Again, you're bent on preventing me having an opinion, and to be specific, we weren't discussing about Djokovic's attitude in general, but iirc on a very specific point about him complaining about every well played shot by his opponent. I have watched the whole match and I'm well within my rights to express my opinion about what was going on there. If you are trying to spin that so I'm "partisan", that's your problem.
You are both extremely sensitive and at the same time glossing over what I am actually writing.

I did not claim that I had read all your posts nor was it necessary for the point I was making to have done so. I have however, seen quite a few of your posts.

What I maintain is that when you write about Djokovic you very often do so as a fervent fan and if I didn't see the "moderator" label next to your name in those instances, I would never have imagined you were one.

In the thread in question you didn't simply express your opinion and disagree with me which would have been fine, but rather you engaged in repeated heated claims with me like any garden variety partisan poster and did so while many other members were also doing so thereby "encouraging" the heating up of the thread.

When I say your attitude and comments "encourage" others, that doesn't mean you incite them with a stick or specifically request that they comment and by now you should understand the difference.

In any case, the point of this thread is not for you to go on about your grievances with me but rather to attempt to clarify the principles here: are moderators supposed to be just as partisan as any old poster here and if so, would that be a good thing? Why or why not?

From what you are writing, it appears that you believe there is no reason that a moderator shouldn't post like any other poster and that a moderator is quite simply a poster with extra administrative duties.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:27 AM   #29
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by Motoflou View Post
If you feel that a mod has broken a site rule, report the post. It's as simple as that. You don't become a different person when you're promoted to mod, you just accept that you have to be more objectional and can't punish users simply because you dislike them.

If a mod did have ill-intentions, believe me, the other mods would notice. And it wouldn't be allowed to continue. As far as I can tell, our mods are doing a great job.
Thanks for the post. As you may have seen from the other posts I have made, I am not just asking what the rules are per se (though I appreciate more clarification on that score) but also whether the intention is for moderators to be regular posters with extra administrative duties or if they are held to a different standard (and if so what would that standard be)?

It isn't breaking the rules to call a poster an idiot apparently (as one poster did to me in this very thread; I believe he used to be a moderator, right?) but I assume it would be problematic for a moderator to do so. Or not?
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:38 AM   #30
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Default Re: How 'fannish' can and should moderators be?

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
In any case, the point of this thread is not for you to go on about your grievances with me but rather to attempt to clarify the principles here: are moderators supposed to be just as partisan as any old poster here and if so, would that be a good thing? Why or why not?

From what you are writing, it appears that you believe there is no reason that a moderator shouldn't post like any other poster and that a moderator is quite simply a poster with extra administrative duties.
I don't get paid for what I do here (nor does any other mod), in which case it might make sense to just monitor the forum and not get involved much. As it is, yes, I'm just a poster with extra duties, and as long as I don't break the rules or abuse my extra authorizations I'm free to post as I please. At least until the rules get changed.
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