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Old 10-04-2013, 12:02 AM   #91
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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In practice the only difference between fascism and communism is the former punishes the ethnic minorities whereas the latter punishes everyone. Trying to separate Marx's utopia from the socialist and communist realities of the 20th century is a typical delusion of the left-wing. It's no wonder the center-right can't be bothered to make the distinction.

You can't be serious about Attlee. Everyone knows Britain's economic decline from 1950 to 1980 can be directly sourced to his populist socialist policies. Only the hard left would describe the nationalization and subsequent mis-management of almost every industry as "very successful".
The man who created the welfare state, the man who created the NHS. The man who rebuilt a nation

Also amusing to blame him for everything shows extreme right-wing bias. Despite his success he lasted one term. Churchill won fair and square, albeit he was rightly loved for his efforts in the war. It's like despite my dislike of Thatcher, me blaming her for the global economic crisis in 2008 and subsequent national deficit.

The reason nationalisation of things like the railways are 'so bad' is because less money will be lining the fat cats' pockets, and they would become somewhat affordable for the ordinary human. I, like many others, cannot afford to travel to the south by train. I have too much to pay out of my wage.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:35 AM   #92
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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The man who created the welfare state, the man who created the NHS. The man who rebuilt a nation

Also amusing to blame him for everything shows extreme right-wing bias. Despite his success he lasted one term. Churchill won fair and square, albeit he was rightly loved for his efforts in the war. It's like despite my dislike of Thatcher, me blaming her for the global economic crisis in 2008 and subsequent national deficit.

The reason nationalisation of things like the railways are 'so bad' is because less money will be lining the fat cats' pockets, and they would become somewhat affordable for the ordinary human. I, like many others, cannot afford to travel to the south by train. I have too much to pay out of my wage.
The ordinary human? Why should the taxpayer be ethically obliged to pay for your train tickets? Because you're an ordinary human and the taxpayer is some kind of abnormal species? If you want your Marxist classless society, maybe you should stop labeling people of different incomes as different types of human.

And how does a single man rebuild a nation? With superpowers? The industries were nationalized because they were all about to go bankrupt - no-one was getting rich. The welfare state and NHS are the two largest burdens on the British taxpayer and hence the entire economy. Thanks to 60 years of national ownership, everyone takes free healthcare for granted and no British politician will dare free an industry that desperately needs privatization.

I would happily blame Thatcher for the 2008 crisis if she can also be credited with the 1997-2007 success. Britain re-overtook France, Germany and Italy in GDP per capita thanks to her reforms. Two steps forward and one step back unlike Attlee's one step forward two steps back. Even while paying war reparations Germany's economic output overtook Britain in the 60s. Most embarrassing was when Italy's GDP per capita reached Britain's in the late 70s.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:07 AM   #93
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Which is why all those "dignidad" signs around Havana are so sad.
We can spend all day long talking about Cuba but the reality is that if Cubans wanted Castro out, Castro would be out.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:08 AM   #94
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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The ordinary human? Why should the taxpayer be ethically obliged to pay for your train tickets? Because you're an ordinary human and the taxpayer is some kind of abnormal species? If you want your Marxist classless society, maybe you should stop labeling people of different incomes as different types of human.

And how does a single man rebuild a nation? With superpowers? The industries were nationalized because they were all about to go bankrupt - no-one was getting rich. The welfare state and NHS are the two largest burdens on the British taxpayer and hence the entire economy. Thanks to 60 years of national ownership, everyone takes free healthcare for granted and no British politician will dare free an industry that desperately needs privatization.

I would happily blame Thatcher for the 2008 crisis if she can also be credited with the 1997-2007 success. Britain re-overtook France, Germany and Italy in GDP per capita thanks to her reforms. Two steps forward and one step back unlike Attlee's one step forward two steps back. Even while paying war reparations Germany's economic output overtook Britain in the 60s. Most embarrassing was when Italy's GDP per capita reached Britain's in the late 70s.
You're forgetting that the people you stick up for would be nothing without the workers who prop up their businesses and keep it going.

The welfare state supports mostly pensioners and the disabled, and those struggling to find employment in a cost of living crisis. I am a taxpayer (dunno why you're trying to make out I'm not) and I am quite happy for the tax I pay to support those people. You will find that far more money is lost due to tax evasion than benefit fraud, but it wouldn't be fair on those corporations would it

There were several PMs since Attlee including TORY PMs Macmillan, Heath and Douglas-Hulme. Even most moderate Tories adknowledge what Attlee did.

As for the NHS being privatised, healthcare should always be universal and should always be there for those who need it. I can debate whether rail/other industries could go private but health is off-limits and always should be. Free healthcare is a wonderful thing. If someone with cancer had to pay for treatment, only a heartless person could endorse such a policy.

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Old 10-04-2013, 02:36 AM   #95
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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You're forgetting that the people you stick up for would be nothing without the workers who prop up their businesses and keep it going.

The welfare state supports mostly pensioners and the disabled, and those struggling to find employment in a cost of living crisis. I am a taxpayer (dunno why you're trying to make out I'm not) and I am quite happy for the tax I pay to support those people. You will find that far more money is lost due to tax evasion than benefit fraud, but it wouldn't be fair on those corporations would it

There were several PMs since Attlee including TORY PMs Macmillan, Heath and Douglas-Hulme. Even most moderate Tories adknowledge what Attlee did.

As for the NHS being privatised, healthcare should always be universal and should always be there for those who need it. I can debate whether rail/other industries could go private but health is off-limits and always should be. Free healthcare is a wonderful thing. If someone with cancer had to pay for treatment, only a heartless person could endorse such a policy.
No, I'm not forgetting about the workers. I just don't understand why workers can't negotiate their own salaries and health insurance with their employers. That's what trade unions are for, not governments.

Benefit fraud, tax evasion - they're all burdens on the government and the economy. Taxpayers end up paying not only for the disabled but the regulators who chase people trying to cheat the system. It's disgusting how inefficient the welfare state is. For every pound paid in taxes, only about 60p goes to the people that need them. Privately owned charitable organizations, which don't have to waste time and money chasing fraudsters, are far more efficient. If tax rates were lowered, people could afford more charitable donations and more like 90p of every pound would go to the disabled pensioners that needed it.

Heath is the only post-war PM that was even worse than Attlee. All Jack Jones had to do was ring the bell of 10 Downing Street, and Heath would cave faster than a sandcastle in an earthquake.

NHS should be subsidized, not free. I might even condone free healthcare for children under the age of 18, who can't choose the income level of their parents. But I don't see why the working class don't feel obliged to pay the doctors, nurses and management for the care provided to them. You don't have to worry, the NHS will never be privatized. Any government that even proposed moving in that direction would see streets fill with protesters faster than mice would take to swiss cheese.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:41 AM   #96
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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No, I'm not forgetting about the workers. I just don't understand why workers can't negotiate their own salaries and health insurance with their employers. That's what trade unions are for, not governments.

Benefit fraud, tax evasion - they're all burdens on the government and the economy. Taxpayers end up paying not only for the disabled but the regulators who chase people trying to cheat the system. It's disgusting how inefficient the welfare state is. For every pound paid in taxes, only about 60p goes to the people that need them. Privately owned charitable organizations, which don't have to waste time and money chasing fraudsters, are far more efficient. If tax rates were lowered, people could afford more charitable donations and more like 90p of every pound would go to the disabled pensioners that needed it.

Heath is the only post-war PM that was even worse than Attlee. All Jack Jones had to do was ring the bell of 10 Downing Street, and Heath would cave faster than a sandcastle in an earthquake.

NHS should be subsidized, not free. I might even condone free healthcare for children under the age of 18, who can't choose the income level of their parents. But I don't see why the working class don't feel obliged to pay the doctors, nurses and management for the care provided to them. You don't have to worry, the NHS will never be privatized. Any government that even proposed moving in that direction would see streets fill with protesters faster than mice would take to swiss cheese.
You thought Callaghan and Wilson were better than Attlee Wow. Callaghan was in charge for the 'winter of discontent', despite Blair's unpopularity over Iraq and Brown's unpopularity with the whole country circa 2010, the 'winter of discontent' is arguably the biggest disaster that a Labour (okay it was a coalition) PM has faced.

And as for the subsidising, are you saying someone with cancer who cannot afford the operation, should not receive it? Come on. There's being right-wing but there's being a compassionate human as well.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:46 AM   #97
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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We can spend all day long talking about Cuba but the reality is that if Cubans wanted Castro out, Castro would be out.
In real democracies you get to do that with a vote.
And how are you suggesting that the Cubans could get him out if they wanted to, anyway?
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:06 AM   #98
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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In real democracies you get to do that with a vote.
And how are you suggesting that the Cubans could get him out if they wanted to, anyway?
A movilized people always finds the way to present its demands. If the Cubans were so unhappy with Castro, the would take the streets of Havana and other cities in hundreds of thousands. As far as I am aware, that hasn't happened.

In the eighties here in Chile, thousands of people were willing to risk their lives in street manifestations, dissident organizations, etc. and that put pressure on Pinochet to call for a plebiscite.

The Cuban regime is much more tolerant than Chile ever was. The dissidents find trouble in Cuba, yes, but they're not tortured and killed like they were here. Yet, dissident Cuban groups like Las Damas de Blanco and political dissident leaders like Yoani Sánchez haven't find the way to deserve the support from the Cuban people of the island.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:50 AM   #99
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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You thought Callaghan and Wilson were better than Attlee Wow. Callaghan was in charge for the 'winter of discontent', despite Blair's unpopularity over Iraq and Brown's unpopularity with the whole country circa 2010, the 'winter of discontent' is arguably the biggest disaster that a Labour (okay it was a coalition) PM has faced.

And as for the subsidising, are you saying someone with cancer who cannot afford the operation, should not receive it? Come on. There's being right-wing but there's being a compassionate human as well.
I'll try to tread carefully because it sounds like you might have had a friend or family member who had cancer and was saved by the NHS. If that's the case, you should stop reading this post because what I'm about to say might offend you.

These are just some of the points I want to make:

The evidence strongly suggests the NHS would help more lives and save more cancer patients if it was in private hands. Most modern medical breakthroughs are made thanks to the rich selfish greedy private sector – the pharmaceutical companies conducting drug trials, the privately owned American hospitals and universities, the billionaires like Bill Gates and middle-eastern Sheikhs donating to hospitals, research operations and non-profit services. There are only a few people, like Steve Jobs, who could afford the most top notch cancer treatment in the world. It only helped him live two years longer than the average joe but does that mean he should have been denied the treatment? Do we have the moral superiority to tell him how to spend his money? In theory, he could have saved thousands of lives with the money it cost to keep him alive just two years longer. On the other hand, the millions he paid to UCLA is now being invested in more research and more breakthroughs.

No-one is a humanitarian. If anyone believed ten other lives were worth more than their own, they'd first sign their organ donation card and then commit suicide. The ordinary human is not a humanitarian, he's lazy, selfish and greedy. But even if I was the most sensitive generous humanitarian in the world, I still have to make choices based on priorities. Let's say I have a million pounds and I could choose between saving the lives of three British cancer patients or twenty African children with tuberculosis, which would I choose? Even the ideal world is bounded by numbers and facts and the ruthless fact is, in a zero sum scenario, one man's salvation is another man's tragedy.

You have to be able to appreciate the gulf between the ideal world and the real world. Medicine, as unfortunate as it may be, is a service just like any other and even more unfortunately is one of the most expensive. Yes, we have the medical knowledge and technology to save certain cancer patients and if we can then we should - it seems obvious. Problem is having the ability to save lives is not the same as having the capability to save lives. The amount of time, money, energy, personal sacrifices, moral sacrifices that were made to get to the level of medical knowledge we're at today is unquantifiable. Lives are being lost because smart students, who could have researched the cures to lethal diseases, choose to study art, music, history or engineering instead of medicine. That doesn't make them criminals anymore than the billionaires who would rather hire people to clip their toenails than save lives.

Anyway, I've rambled on longer than I should have and you probably stopped reading paragraphs ago. I just can't help rant about socialists who believe they have the humanitarian high ground. In an ideal world healthcare would be 100% private but, as I've already said, in the real world even I would let governments subsidize. If that's not enough and it makes me a heartless sociopath then so be it.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:43 AM   #100
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Smile Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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A movilized people always finds the way to present its demands. If the Cubans were so unhappy with Castro, the would take the streets of Havana and other cities in hundreds of thousands. As far as I am aware, that hasn't happened.

In the eighties here in Chile, thousands of people were willing to risk their lives in street manifestations, dissident organizations, etc. and that put pressure on Pinochet to call for a plebiscite.

The Cuban regime is much more tolerant than Chile ever was. The dissidents find trouble in Cuba, yes, but they're not tortured and killed like they were here. Yet, dissident Cuban groups like Las Damas de Blanco and political dissident leaders like Yoani Sánchez haven't find the way to deserve the support from the Cuban people of the island.
I often asked Cubans about that. And they often answered that it was impossible to do anything, so tight was the control on their movement. And after 50 years of brainwashing, they could not really imagine an alternative.
Cuba's most distinguished geologist told me that the first time he left Cuba to go to a conference in New York, he stayed in his room from Friday evening to Monday morning and drank water from the tap. Why? Because he had been schooled to believe that if he ventured on a NY street alone he would probably be stabbed to death. He told me how it takes a long time to come to terms with the fact that everything you have been taught is a lie.
So I do believe that there is huge support for the Damas de Blanco, but most people are just afraid to express it. You must realize that the Party has its goons in every apartment block, who report even the slightest hint of dissidence. Actually, the sad part is that when Cubans are asked about the Damas de Blanco, a typical response is that thy are just wasting their time because there is nothing that can be done until the Castros are both gone to hell.
Cubans find out from an early age that if you keep your mouth shut and do as you are told you will not be harassed. If you show any sign of dissatisfaction you will be punished severely. One of my experiences that still makes me despise the Communists is that my best friend used to have me over to his place for a coffee every Sunday afternoon, when we would discuss what was happening in the world. Immediately after I left Cuba he was hauled before the disciplinary committee at his work and told that a good Cuban would never, ever have a "westerner" cross his doorstep in friendship. And he was fired from his job for such defiant antisocial behaviour. And what is so disgusting is that his bosses that put him through this, were the same Communist goons who asked me to bring them back packets of smoked salmon every time I left the country. But of course they were not seen having me over to their houses when the packets were opened.
But anyway, you have answered one all important question. The Cuban people can abandon all hope of expressing their desires in a ballot box, unlike in the countries where democracy is practised.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:08 AM   #101
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Anyway, I've rambled on longer than I should have and you probably stopped reading paragraphs ago. I just can't help rant about socialists who believe they have the humanitarian high ground. In an ideal world healthcare would be 100% private but, as I've already said, in the real world even I would let governments subsidize. If that's not enough and it makes me a heartless sociopath then so be it.
I did not stop reading. Since I returned to Canada I have become increasingly dismayed by the Canadian system - the one that is cited so often by others as a good example. My experience to date has been:

If you have a medical emergency you will get treated.

If you have a medical problem you will get an appointment with a specialist that will most likely be 3-6 months away.

If you want to safeguard your health by taking preventive measures you are out of luck. Seems the medical profession is too overwhelmed to have time for such extras, when people are already waiting months for treatment for a problem that has already developed.

I have been in Toronto for four years now and have still to find a doctor. I find the doctors in the walk-in clinics to be inexperienced and not able to, or not willing to, develop a personal relationship. It seems the possibility of finding a good doctor is extremely low, as most doctors now only accept new patients that are family members of existing patients. One doctor at the clinic was texting as I related my symptoms!
And even sadder, Canadian doctors are paid by the visit. It is in the doctor's best financial interest to write you a prescription and shove you out the door. Competence in a doctor is not rewarded, it is treating a conveyor belt of minor problems that brings in the $350,000/year government salary.. It is no surprise that the medical lobby resists all pressure for privatisation and a system where performance brings rewards.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:04 PM   #102
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

I would dance on his grave given the chance.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:39 PM   #103
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Invest in stomach! That investment gives fast and evident results. Investment in head is long-term and uncertain.
(D. Radović; aphorism translated in English by zeleni)

Capitalism and socialism are two sides of the same coin. Their prescriptions are different but both have the same cure for humanity - equitable distribution of assets.

This unacceptable, materialistic reduction of human nature leads - history has proven - into totalitarianism.

Colonialism (including contemporary neocolonialism) and Nazism are historical embodiment of capitalism.
Soviet Union and North Korea are historical embodiment of socialism.

Sorry, no cherry picking.

Now, question of correspondence between paper works of A. Smith or K. Marx and historical realities is something else...
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:45 PM   #104
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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I'll try to tread carefully because it sounds like you might have had a friend or family member who had cancer and was saved by the NHS. If that's the case, you should stop reading this post because what I'm about to say might offend you.
I agree the debate ends here, but yeah, this is true. One was saved by the NHS. Another two were prolonged, but are sadly no longer with us now.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:26 AM   #105
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in before BuddyHolly's posts
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The content is immaterial.

But the style is right up there with the Maoist, Stalinist and North Korean paintings of happy peasants bringing in the bountiful harvests. I thought that rhetorical garbage was gone in all but the N. Korean bastion of human suffering.
Just!
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