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Old 10-01-2013, 06:24 AM   #61
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Well, that would end that discussion, then.
But I have seen that kind of thing in practice. I doubt that you have.
And I just googled "world bank Cuba statistics" The first item that came up was where the World Bank had praised Cuba for its wonderful infant mortality rates, comparable to the developed countries. Yeah, right.
When you say that the World Bank accepts Figures provided by the Cuban government, that does not mean they verified them.
Actually I have lived abroad extensively sir. But you seem to be saying you don't accept ANY social data you haven't personally verified so it is YOU who is ending all discussion or limiting it to competing anecdotes. I have plenty of counter-anecdotes but the plural of anecdote is not data.

I trust you see how ludicrous your position is.

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Old 10-01-2013, 07:58 AM   #62
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by Htom Sirveaux View Post
Sheer population size can have an impact on political economy but it usually only makes a difference when the larger population results in significant diversity, and I don't think that's the case with Chile; all three Southern Cone countries are almost entirely of European descent and entirely Spanish-speaking. I think what really sets Chile apart from the other two, especially Uruguay, is that its land has given it something of a 'resource curse' economy which no doubt played a large part in creating the necessary conditions for first a Marxist government and then a neoliberal military junta to both radically experiment with the country.
Chile is a copper exporter, hardly comparable to oil, gold, platinum or diamonds. Their economy and people are far more diversified than Uruguay, so much so that many studies can't agree as to the exact classification of the groups and regions.

Venezuela, like many African nations, has been given the worst resource curse in the region.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:04 AM   #63
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Always knew MTF was left-wing but defending Chavez and Castro takes it to a new level.
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:05 PM   #64
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
Actually I have lived abroad extensively sir. But you seem to be saying you don't accept ANY social data you haven't personally verified so it is YOU who is ending all discussion or limiting it to competing anecdotes. I have plenty of counter-anecdotes but the plural of anecdote is not data.

I trust you see how ludicrous your position is.
I thought we were talking specifically about Cuba. Not just anywhere abroad.
And you seem to be arguing that all Cuban government supplied statistics must be accepted as factual. I wonder why you would think that.

PS: I was ASKED to provide an anecdote. I am a courteous person. And a courteously supplied anecdotal example of my experience in Cuba hardly limits the discussion, I would think.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:16 PM   #65
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Chile is a copper exporter, hardly comparable to oil, gold, platinum or diamonds. Their economy and people are far more diversified than Uruguay, so much so that many studies can't agree as to the exact classification of the groups and regions.

Venezuela, like many African nations, has been given the worst resource curse in the region.
The 'Presidency of Frei Montalva' and 'Socialist Experiment' sections here both discuss the out-sized importance of copper to the Chilean economy when Allende came to power. It also interestingly suggests that Allende's Christian Democrat predecessor had essentially laid the foundation for the nationalization of the foreign controlled industry and was attempting to use their 'principle resource' as a springboard to develop a more diversified and prosperous economy. That's what I was referencing when I talked about the necessary conditions existing to facilitate the rise of an industry-nationalizing Marxist political movement that was strong and organized enough to actually gain power:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...ical-groupings

The following article gives a percentage of copper as exports during the period, but it's not sourced and the magazine is leftish (but serious). I'm not endorsing his spin on the history; this is just one of the few sources I've found where they give an actual percentage:

http://www.thenation.com/article/true-verdict-allende

And I agree that Venezuela (and several other Bolivarian/Andean countries) have been harder hit by the 'resource curse' than Chile; I was only meaning to compare Chile to the other Southern Cone nations. I tried to downplay it's relative international standing by saying it had suffered from 'something of a resource curse'.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:25 AM   #66
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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I met Fidel a few times at embassy receptions. I even arranged a reception when our company investors came on a visit for the signing of our contract. It was never guaranteed he would come. We had to rent a government owned house, put on a buffet and wait to see if he showed up. He did show up and stayed a few hours. I had expected that maybe he would be in a room in the house and the most important people would be escorted in to see him. But he circulated freely through the receptions or most of the evening.
My anecdote from that is that I had the bright idea of getting our company name printed on cigar bands. Then I got quality Cuban cigars and put our own bands on them, with gift boxes for all the investors. But when I offered Fidel one of our "special" cigars at the reception, there was an immediate rush of his bodyguards to grab the cigar.
I had forgotten about the earlier CIA plot to give him an exploding cigar.!!! Fortunately it ended with smiles all round. I have lots of pictures and Fidel's autograph on the invitation.
Cool story. I definitely wasn't expecting an anecdote which involved the president. Hopefully you remembered to get a picture with him. I assume you lived in Havana, and that you had many positive experiences living there?
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:32 AM   #67
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Cool story. I definitely wasn't expecting an anecdote which involved the president. Hopefully you remembered to get a picture with him. I assume you lived in Havana, and that you had many positive experiences living there?
I lived there for 10 years. I liked the non-party people and the beaches. Havana city was at its worst after the Soviets left and Old Havana, which looks European, was almost in ruins with many buildings falling down, During my time there, it's restoration began and by the time I left enormous progress had been made in saving it.
But every foreign company has to work 50-50 with the Cuban government and that was very frustrating. In the sense that Fidel invited foreigners in after the Soviets left, because the Cubans had no experience at anything. Yet they had been taught in school that they were the best at everything, so tried to run things. Yes, the work part was dreadful, but it was interesting to be in Havana during the "special period" when things were tough. So tough that Fidel let the rafters leave, as long as there were no children with them. They put their rafts of spare tyres in the water below my balcony. I shudder to think of the numbers that were never seen again.
At that time also, some people were desperate enough to hijack the little ferry boats in Havana harbour. It was almost a tourist attraction to go to the harbour and maybe see one make a break for the ocean. But that ended when Fidel ordered a patrol boat to use a high power hose on a boat and some women and children were washed overboard.

I have one good closeup of myself in animated conversation with Fidel and I just happen to be waving my finger at him when the shutter clicked.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:36 AM   #68
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Prove what?
Prove that Cuba's figures are accepted like Venezuela's are.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:37 AM   #69
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Always knew MTF was left-wing but defending Chavez and Castro takes it to a new level.
Chavez helped the poor in his nation. Took on the rich. Hence your frustrated hate for the man. I do agree Castro was a dictator though.
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:08 AM   #70
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Chavez helped the poor in his nation. Took on the rich. Hence your frustrated hate for the man. I do agree Castro was a dictator though.
Chavez helped the poor get guns on the streets and bully the voters. Drove the rich working class out of the country, hence your blind love for the man.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:09 PM   #71
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Prove that Cuba's figures are accepted like Venezuela's are.
Cuba's statistics are published by the World Bank.
There is only one source for the statistics.
Do the math.
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:58 PM   #72
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Chavez helped the poor get guns on the streets and bully the voters. Drove the rich working class out of the country, hence your blind love for the man.
Blind love You stick to your Maggie shrines.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:32 AM   #73
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

YES! Let's talk about Maggie.



She could have wiped the floor with Chavez.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:07 AM   #74
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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YES! Let's talk about Maggie.



She could have wiped the floor with Chavez.
Seeing her most powerful ally (the Daily Heil) turn a lot of people leftward with their bullying of Ed Miliband over his father, was quite amusing
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:40 AM   #75
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Yes, I was unaware Red Ed had been brought up by a raving Marxist. It was funny, as you say.

I would expect a lot less people will vote for him next time.
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