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Old 09-29-2013, 06:22 PM   #31
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by Htom Sirveaux View Post
Regarding Uruguay's wealth relative to Chile, it's true that they're slightly behind in GPD per capita but their GINI index is also several points below Chile's. Were I to born today in South America without knowing the economic status of my parents and had my choice of country, I'd probably take Uruguay first and Chile second.
Even though Chile has a higher GDP per capita (adjusted for PPP) than Uruguay, a bigger proportion of the uruguayan population has a higher income per capita than that of chile's. goes to show once again the problem with averages.

being born in the bottom 40% of chile's poorest population will virtually guarantee you a life in poverty. Meritocracy is an empty neoliberal word in this land.
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Old 09-29-2013, 06:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
Even though Chile has a higher GDP per capita (adjusted for PPP) than Uruguay, a bigger proportion of the uruguayan population has a higher income per capita than that of chile's. goes to show once again the problem with averages.

being born in the bottom 40% of chile's poorest population will virtually guarantee you a life in poverty. Meritocracy is an empty neoliberal word in this land.
That's why I referenced Uruguay's superior GINI index, which is a statistical measure of economic equality (or inequality), and said I'd prefer to be born in Uruguay over Chile even if Chile has a slightly higher GDP per capita.

Edit: I only used 'Indian' (in quotations because I know it's considered offensive and ignorant to some), because I'm not sure what the preferred catch-all for native peoples is in South America. 'Native Americans' works in the USA and Canada seems to use 'First Nations', but I've only ever heard South American 'Indians' called by their unique cultural group names such as the Quechua.
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by Htom Sirveaux View Post
That's why I referenced Uruguay's superior GINI index, which is a statistical measure of economic equality (or inequality), and said I'd prefer to be born in Uruguay over Chile even if Chile has a slightly higher GDP per capita.
I know. I was just giving some background to that idea.

Quote:
Edit: I only used 'Indian' (in quotations because I know it's considered offensive and ignorant to some), because I'm not sure what the preferred catch-all for native peoples is in South America. 'Native Americans' works in the USA and Canada seems to use 'First Nations', but I've only ever heard South American 'Indians' called by their unique cultural group names such as the Quechua.
it's really a non-issue at least for me
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Chavez is a democratic leader.

The right-wing dominated world media see any successful socialist government as either corrupt or undemocratic. That's why Salvador Allende was replaced by Augusto Pinochet.
Glad to see you talking sense in here. The list of democratic "affronts" the right can't tolerate is long indeed and they will invent any half-assed story they can to justify their little coups and 'interventions'
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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One of the most beautiful and accurate columns I have read about Chávez. Wanted to share a bit with you all.
http://noesnalaferia.cl/geopolitica/...-de-su-tiempo/
I think perhaps a more useful column would be this one with some very important facts and figures from some very solid progressive economists:

Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/...avez-in-graphs


and here:


Since 2004, when the economy had recovered from the 2002-2003 recession, poverty fell by nearly half and extreme poverty by 70 percent. This measures only cash income, and does not include such gains as the provision of health care to millions of Venezuelans, or the doubling of college enrollment, with free tuition for many students.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-...nomic-recovery


All of this explains why a very large percentage of Venezuelans are fortunate that the Washington consensus as implemented by local comprador classes wasn't imposed on them.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:00 PM   #36
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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It must be a constant source of outrage for you that Chile is now the richest country in South America.
Chile also is the most unequal country in the southern cone, which has long been the wealthiest part of Latin America long before Pinochet, Allende, or Peron. And Chile has always been more stable than its neighbors.

And despite its successes, Chile has little industry to speak of, and is completely dependant on foreign trade for heavy industry and energy. Funny how Chavez and Venezuela's dependant on foreign oil is always criticized, while Chile's copper dependency is ignored.

So yes, Chile is relatively successful, but there's more to the story than GDP per capita.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Chile also is the most unequal country in the southern cone, which has long been the wealthiest part of Latin America long before Pinochet, Allende, or Peron. And Chile has always been more stable than its neighbors.

And despite its successes, Chile has little industry to speak of, and is completely dependant on foreign trade for heavy industry and energy. Funny how Chavez and Venezuela's dependant on foreign oil is always criticized, while Chile's copper dependency is ignored.

So yes, Chile is relatively successful, but there's more to the story than GDP per capita.
To be fair both Chile and Venezuela have benefited of the rising prices of oil and copper in the international markets. The oil price has tripled since the invasion of Iraq and copper quadrupled.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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First of all, I'm an American so my idea of 'center-left' is probably far more conservative that how a European would define the term.

I was going to do some actual research for a response, but I found that the right-wing Heritage Foundation had done my work for me. They measure based on several aspects of economic 'freedom', so I'd say it's a fairly balanced picture of what an economy looks like even if I don't necessarily like how they interpret the data:

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Chile is seventh and nearly 'Free', ie neoliberal. Uruguay 36 and only 'Moderately free', ie center-left. Argentina is 160 and 'Repressed', ie populist.

You'll also see that several historically Social Democratic countries (Denmark, Finland, Sweden) are in the top twenty. Those countries still have massive government as percent of GDP, strong unions and universal health insurance among other government programs. But they're incredibly 'free' because they do everything besides taxing and spending the way a classical liberal would want and they manage to run their welfare states efficiently with minimal corruption. I still consider all of these countries 'center-left' by international standards even if they're liberalizing in some crucial areas in order to stay competitive.

Regarding Uruguay's wealth relative to Chile, it's true that they're slightly behind in GPD per capita but their GINI index is also several points below Chile's. Were I to born today in South America without knowing the economic status of my parents and had my choice of country, I'd probably take Uruguay first and Chile second.
Indeed, I frequently refer to the Heritage Foundation to see how countries are progressing. It's a very interesting study for me, obviously not perfectly objective but what ever is? And since I don't want to spend time carefully following all 150 countries in my own subjective manner, it's a very useful place to start in terms of judging economic freedom.

You have to remember when comparing Uruguay to Chile or Argentina, it's like comparing Germany to Denmark. A country of one tenth the population is bound to have smaller class and income differences, greater stability and predictable politics. There may even be regions of Chile with comparable size and GINI coefficients to the whole of Uruguay. It's not always the politics that governs wealth distribution.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:34 PM   #39
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
"I have 1 piece of bread, you have 11 pieces. Pieces of bread per capita? Six.

When you get that, you and BH will hopefully be able to comprehend most of the problems attached to the so called economic development of Chile and that of other Latin countries as well.
Yes I know no single statistic is perfect, but bear in mind GDP consists of both PPP and OER. GINI coefficients aren't perfect either. Chile's gap between richest and poorest 20% is actually lower than Argentina, for instance. I would love to spend all day discussing every single economic statistic but if I had to choose the one which matters the most, GDP per capita will always come first.


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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
Even though Chile has a higher GDP per capita (adjusted for PPP) than Uruguay, a bigger proportion of the uruguayan population has a higher income per capita than that of chile's. goes to show once again the problem with averages.

being born in the bottom 40% of chile's poorest population will virtually guarantee you a life in poverty. Meritocracy is an empty neoliberal word in this land.
That sums up the difference between our priorities. You like to focus on the poorest, I like to focus on the average.
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Old 09-29-2013, 11:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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It's ok. I have no problem with the term "indian". It's accepted even though some pompous punks will insist with terms like "amerindians" or "indigenous people".
It wasn't the term Indian, but the inference that they hinder development of the country they are in.
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Old 09-29-2013, 11:45 PM   #41
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I think perhaps a more useful column would be this one with some very important facts and figures from some very solid progressive economists:

Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/...avez-in-graphs


.
But those facts and figures seem to come from agencies of Chavez's own government.

Having lived in Cuba long enough to know that government statistics are just made up by the Party, and since Chavez learned a lot from Castro, then .............................
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Old 09-29-2013, 11:47 PM   #42
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Chile also is the most unequal country in the southern cone, .
If you mean income inequality, I don't think that is correct.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:20 AM   #43
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
If you mean income inequality, I don't think that is correct.
I mean relative to Argentina and Uruguay, countries with relatively similar standards of living and historical development. Comparing Chile's economic and social development to Bolivia wouldn't really make much sense.

Chile doesn't have the ethnic divide and regional development issues countries with higher GINI coefficients do in the region, like Brazil, Colombia, Paraguay, and Bolivia.

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To be fair both Chile and Venezuela have benefited of the rising prices of oil and copper in the international markets. The oil price has tripled since the invasion of Iraq and copper quadrupled.
This is true, and both countries have used their resources to achieve different things. But only Chavez was criticized for relying on resource extraction - to take people out of poverty.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
You have to remember when comparing Uruguay to Chile or Argentina, it's like comparing Germany to Denmark. A country of one tenth the population is bound to have smaller class and income differences, greater stability and predictable politics. There may even be regions of Chile with comparable size and GINI coefficients to the whole of Uruguay. It's not always the politics that governs wealth distribution.
Chile and Uruguay have a relatively similar population distribution - both have similar population densities (19 per sq km for Uruguay, 22 for Chile), a third of both countries live within the prosperous capital metropolitan area, while the rest of both countries are relatively underpopulated. If anything the outer regions of Chile are more prosperous and equal, since they have low populations and plenty of natural resources.

So no, in the case of Chile, their GINI coefficient is directly a result of policy.

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Old 09-30-2013, 04:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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But those facts and figures seem to come from agencies of Chavez's own government.

Having lived in Cuba long enough to know that government statistics are just made up by the Party, and since Chavez learned a lot from Castro, then .............................
Those facts and figures are accepted by the World Bank as well my friend but nice try. They are as reliable as those of most other countries.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:20 PM   #45
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Those facts and figures are accepted by the World Bank as well my friend but nice try. They are as reliable as those of most other countries.
Cuba's figures probably are accepted as well. There is no other source but the Party propaganda machine. Swallow the numbers if you wish.

But when you have first hand knowledge of Cuban babies that died soon after birth and were incinerated without the parent's permission, then you begin to understand why the Party is so proud of the infant mortality rates that they publish.
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