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Old 09-28-2013, 02:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
With a bombastic style right out of the 1950's, it probably is considered cutting edge in Chile.
well, if you look at all the hipsters using black thick glasses like the ones the real Buddy Holly used to wear in the 1950's, we can only conclude that the old is the new 'cutting edge' in many regards.
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Old 09-28-2013, 03:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Chavez is a democratic leader.

The right-wing dominated world media see any successful socialist government as either corrupt or undemocratic. That's why Salvador Allende was replaced by Augusto Pinochet.
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Old 09-28-2013, 03:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Speaking about President Allende, this was his last speech:

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This speech was delivered at 9:10 am on September 11, 1973, in the midst on an ultimately successful US-sponsored coup d'etat against the democratically-elected government. Barricaded inside La Moneda, the presidential palace, President Allende gave his life defending Chilean democracy.


My friends,

Surely this will be the last opportunity for me to address you. The Air Force has bombed the towers of Radio Portales and Radio Corporación.

My words do not have bitterness but disappointment. May they be a moral punishment for those who have betrayed their oath: soldiers of Chile, titular commanders in chief, Admiral Merino, who has designated himself Commander of the Navy, and Mr. Mendoza, the despicable general who only yesterday pledged his fidelity and loyalty to the Government, and who also has appointed himself Chief of the Carabineros [national police].

Given these facts, the only thing left for me is to say to workers: I am not going to resign!

Placed in a historic transition, I will pay for loyalty to the people with my life. And I say to them that I am certain that the seed which we have planted in the good conscience of thousands and thousands of Chileans will not be shriveled forever.

They have strength and will be able to dominate us, but social processes can be arrested neither by crime nor force. History is ours, and people make history.

Workers of my country: I want to thank you for the loyalty that you always had, the confidence that you deposited in a man who was only an interpreter of great yearnings for justice, who gave his word that he would respect the Constitution and the law and did just that. At this definitive moment, the last moment when I can address you, I wish you to take advantage of the lesson: foreign capital, imperialism, together with the reaction, created the climate in which the Armed Forces broke their tradition, the tradition taught by General Schneider and reaffirmed by Commander Araya, victims of the same social sector which will today be in their homes hoping, with foreign assistance, to retake power to continue defending their profits and their privileges.

I address, above all, the modest woman of our land, the campesina who believed in us, the worker who labored more, the mother who knew our concern for children. I address professionals of Chile, patriotic professionals, those who days ago continued working against the sedition sponsored by professional associations, class-based associations that also defended the advantages which a capitalist society grants to a few.

I address the youth, those who sang and gave us their joy and their spirit of struggle. I address the man of Chile, the worker, the farmer, the intellectual, those who will be persecuted, because in our country fascism has been already present for many hours -- in terrorist attacks, blowing up the bridges, cutting the railroad tracks, destroying the oil and gas pipelines, in the face of the silence of those who had the obligation to protect them. They were committed. History will judge them.

Surely Radio Magallanes will be silenced, and the calm metal instrument of my voice will no longer reach you. It does not matter. You will continue hearing it. I will always be next to you. At least my memory will be that of a man of dignity who was loyal to [inaudible] the workers.

The people must defend themselves, but they must not sacrifice themselves. The people must not let themselves be destroyed or riddled with bullets, but they cannot be humiliated either.

Workers of my country, I have faith in Chile and its destiny. Other men will overcome this dark and bitter moment when treason seeks to prevail. Go forward knowing that, sooner rather than later, the great avenues will open again where free men will walk to build a better society.

Long live Chile! Long live the people! Long live the workers!

These are my last words, and I am certain that my sacrifice will not be in vain, I am certain that, at the very least, it will be a moral lesson that will punish felony, cowardice, and treason.

Santiago de Chile, 11 September 1973
It's strange how my country changed from one of the most leftist nations in Latin America to one of the most capitalist nations in the world in less than 30 years. The capitalist model was imposed on us by force and, as the dissident voices were tortured and killed, the masses were fed with the wonders of economic growth, a wonder that never came to the them in the same measure as it came to the elite. However, over the past 3 years, 20 years after the recuperation of a strange democracy, things have been shaking up by new leaders and new organizations that struggle everyday to make a better place for all of us, especially the ones who who have less. The words of President Allende will prove to be immortal:

"They have strength and will be able to dominate us, but social processes can be arrested neither by crime nor force. History is ours, and people make history."

Allende and Chavez live in all us still.
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

It must be a constant source of outrage for you that Chile is now the richest country in South America.
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Old 09-28-2013, 05:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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It must be a constant source of outrage for you that Chile is now the richest country in South America.
Chile richer than Brasil?
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Old 09-28-2013, 06:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Per person, yes.

Or, to be precise, Chileans are the richest people in South America. With generally better income equality too.

Although admittedly, there seems to be a law that says the further from the equator, the better.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

The Southern Cone as a whole (Argentina, Chile, Uruguay) does better than the rest of Latin America with none of them having significantly better performance than the others. They have good land, very few 'Indians' and a legacy of relatively moderate (by LA standards) governments that presided over mixed economies. Chile has generally had the most unequal economy of the three while Argentina's has been the least stable. I'd take Uruguay's boring but stable and prosperous center-left political economy over either Argentina's populism or Chile's neoliberalism.

It doesn't make much sense to compare Venezuela to any of them though. Venezuela is geographically and demographically most similar to the other Andean countries, which all share a tendency towards military coups, 'Indian' populism and severe inequality/poverty.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:35 PM   #23
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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They have good land, very few 'Indians' .
You're in trouble now!
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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You're in trouble now!
There's a terrible legacy of discrimination and persecution of pretty much all of the various native peoples in the Americas, but less of them were exterminated in the Latin countries; they were simply incorporated into a caste system with no chance of advancement. It's no surprise that those same Latin countries with large 'Indian' populations now have high levels of concentrated poverty. It's also no surprise that the economic and racial divides in those countries led to illiberal populists like Chavez, Morales and Correa gaining power.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:32 AM   #25
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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I'd take Uruguay's boring but stable and prosperous center-left political economy over either Argentina's populism or Chile's neoliberalism.
Uruguay is OK but their average living standard still lags behind Chile and Argentina. It's easier to maintain stability in such a small country with fewer class conflicts.

"Neoliberalism" brought Chile's average income to the top of Latin America. If anything it's an example Uruguay would be well-advised to follow, although they're already the 2nd most economically free in the region despite what you would call "center-left" politics.
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Old 09-29-2013, 03:53 AM   #26
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Uruguay is OK but their average living standard still lags behind Chile and Argentina. It's easier to maintain stability in such a small country with fewer class conflicts.

"Neoliberalism" brought Chile's average income to the top of Latin America. If anything it's an example Uruguay would be well-advised to follow, although they're already the 2nd most economically free in the region despite what you would call "center-left" politics.
First of all, I'm an American so my idea of 'center-left' is probably far more conservative that how a European would define the term.

I was going to do some actual research for a response, but I found that the right-wing Heritage Foundation had done my work for me. They measure based on several aspects of economic 'freedom', so I'd say it's a fairly balanced picture of what an economy looks like even if I don't necessarily like how they interpret the data:

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Chile is seventh and nearly 'Free', ie neoliberal. Uruguay 36 and only 'Moderately free', ie center-left. Argentina is 160 and 'Repressed', ie populist.

You'll also see that several historically Social Democratic countries (Denmark, Finland, Sweden) are in the top twenty. Those countries still have massive government as percent of GDP, strong unions and universal health insurance among other government programs. But they're incredibly 'free' because they do everything besides taxing and spending the way a classical liberal would want and they manage to run their welfare states efficiently with minimal corruption. I still consider all of these countries 'center-left' by international standards even if they're liberalizing in some crucial areas in order to stay competitive.

Regarding Uruguay's wealth relative to Chile, it's true that they're slightly behind in GPD per capita but their GINI index is also several points below Chile's. Were I to born today in South America without knowing the economic status of my parents and had my choice of country, I'd probably take Uruguay first and Chile second.
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Old 09-29-2013, 03:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Humane?

Ask the Venezuelan Jews and journalists.
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Old 09-29-2013, 06:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

Chavez as a true leader of his people and not some random yanks butt licking puppet like few of SA leaders are will be forever regarded as a true legend!
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Uruguay is OK but their average living standard still lags behind Chile and Argentina. It's easier to maintain stability in such a small country with fewer class conflicts.

"Neoliberalism" brought Chile's average income to the top of Latin America. If anything it's an example Uruguay would be well-advised to follow, although they're already the 2nd most economically free in the region despite what you would call "center-left" politics.
"I have 1 piece of bread, you have 11 pieces. Pieces of bread per capita? Six.

When you get that, you and BH will hopefully be able to comprehend most of the problems attached to the so called economic development of Chile and that of other Latin countries as well.
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: Homage to Hugo Chávez, the most humane leader of his times

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You're in trouble now!
It's ok. I have no problem with the term "indian". It's accepted even though some pompous punks will insist with terms like "amerindians" or "indigenous people".
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