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Old 09-13-2013, 03:40 AM   #61
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Originally Posted by Manequin75 View Post
sex loses its charm in 30 minutes or so also. So whats your point?
well my point is that why does every match between them have to be baseline grinding.most of their matches come down to the survival of the fittest.There are very few variety in their matches .they both can be great shortmakers and their matches can be more entartaining on fast courts.we need variety of sufaces and playing style.Even the kohlschreiber match had more variety.

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Old 09-13-2013, 03:48 AM   #62
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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well my point is that why does every match between them have to be baseline grinding.most of their matches come down to the survival of the fittest.There are very few variety in their matches .they both can be great shortmakers and their matches can be more entartaining on fast courts.we need variety of sufaces and playing style.
Their US Open match only last 3.5 hours and they hit 70+ winners between the two of them. It was hardly a grind fest by their standards.

And have you seen how difficult it is to hit through either of these players? It's not like they each aren't TRYING to hit winners on the other guy. Neither one of these guys WANTS to hit 50 shot rallies. But they are both so damn good, that it sometimes takes that many shots to hit a winner or draw an error.

What you see as "grinding" just happens to be two complete badass tennis players who are so damn good that they have trouble getting ahead in points against each other. So it looks like a grind. Reality is, both guys are hitting 2-3 winners every point on each other, and the other guy is just retrieving shit they shouldn't be able to retrieve. What's not to like about these kinds of matches?
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:53 AM   #63
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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well my point is that why does every match between them have to be baseline grinding.most of their matches come down to the survival of the fittest.There are very few variety in their matches .they both can be great shortmakers and their matches can be more entartaining on fast courts.we need variety of sufaces and playing style.
Im surprised you say that. These two were just not grinding. Most of their points had various strokes where they were picking the ball off their feet and hitting it on the line on the other side at angles more acute than the previous one. Some of these rallies were unreal. These are seen only when Nole and Rafa play each other. They each go to their limits taking the other along. And then its tactical and strategy in play. Novak wants to pin Rafa to his BH waiting for a short reply and Rafa is changing the pattern with more acute angles and deeper shots. Watch how rafa tries to protect his serve against the guy with the best ROS in the world. Watch how Rafa tries keeping the ball straight and not giving nole angles in hittable positions. Watch how Rafa sets up to go DTL FH after a couple CC to set up a net approach. If you followed their 2011 encounters you can see a lot of X and 0s in this match up that are fascinating. Nole BH DTL doesnt have the venom as 2011? WHy? Honestly this is the best match-up in tennis if you get deeper into the nuts and bolts. These two are very intelligent players. Watch their movements. I never got bored one minute. To each his own.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:13 AM   #64
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Originally Posted by ahadabans View Post
Their US Open match only last 3.5 hours and they hit 70+ winners between the two of them. It was hardly a grind fest by their standards.

And have you seen how difficult it is to hit through either of these players? It's not like they each aren't TRYING to hit winners on the other guy. Neither one of these guys WANTS to hit 50 shot rallies. But they are both so damn good, that it sometimes takes that many shots to hit a winner or draw an error.

What you see as "grinding" just happens to be two complete badass tennis players who are so damn good that they have trouble getting ahead in points against each other. So it looks like a grind. Reality is, both guys are hitting 2-3 winners every point on each other, and the other guy is just retrieving shit they shouldn't be able to retrieve. What's not to like about these kinds of matches?
yes i get your point.but as a tennis fan i dont want to see same 3-4 players reaching slam finals very year.And they use this same tactic on every surface becaue of surface homogenisation.watch the match bn rafa and roddick in the year in which roddick won us open.he was hitting right through him.if surfaces are faster we would see some more shortmaking these two and their matches will ne far more interesting.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:00 AM   #65
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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yes i get your point.but as a tennis fan i dont want to see same 3-4 players reaching slam finals very year.And they use this same tactic on every surface becaue of surface homogenisation.watch the match bn rafa and roddick in the year in which roddick won us open.he was hitting right through him.if surfaces are faster we would see some more shortmaking these two and their matches will ne far more interesting.
I just got done watching an abbreviated version of the final on youtube. I suggest anyone who didn't watch the match should check it out. It's HD and edited really well. And the match quality was outrageously high for the most part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbCLuEXfpM

I counted at least 30 shots that would have been winners against any other players. I can't believe some of the crap these two were retrieving (especially Novak). It was ridiculous. I'm sure you've seen the 54 shot rally? There were at least 5 winners in that rally.

As far as court speed... Rafa used to play 10 feet behind the baseline. James Blake could hit through Rafa. Pretty much any aggressive HC player that didn't suck could. Hell, Ferrer beat him at the US Open. That has way less to do with court speed than where Rafa was standing. In the US Open final, he was pushed back into a defensive position by Novak in the second set and Novak was blasting winners past him left and right. Again, these guys are just flat out awesome. Transport either of these two back to 2003 when Roddick won his US Open, and Andy would get his ass handed to him by both these guys. You're watching two guys who will end up top 10 of all time when their careers finish. Andy Roddick is a one slam wonder with a limited game carried by a really good serve.

Now I completely feel you on the predictable slam final situation. As much as I love watching Rafa and Nole duke it out, I don't want every final to be these guys playing "who can retrieve more winners". So I hear you there. Hopefully, Del Potro can get back to his 2009 form. Or maybe Stan can take the next step. Or maybe one of the younger guys like Tomic can stop being a mug and take the next step.

Just be glad it isn't 2007 again, where every single slam had Federer versus some guy who couldn't beat him (except RG which had Nadal beating Roger's ass into the ground). Talk about predictable. And that shit lasted for YEARS. At least with Rafa and Nole, you aren't sure who is going to win until the match is almost over. Seriously, these two have crazy competitive matches.

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Old 09-13-2013, 05:29 AM   #66
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

While I prefer to watch two serve & volleyers play each other to watching two baseliners, it's still rather boring to watch two serve & volleyers play each other, because the points are always short - the points are not built.

It's always more interesting to have two different - and contrasting - styles playing against each other. They bring out the best in each other.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:47 AM   #67
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Originally Posted by ahadabans View Post
I just got done watching an abbreviated version of the final on youtube. I suggest anyone who didn't watch the match should check it out. It's HD and edited really well. And the match quality was outrageously high for the most part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbCLuEXfpM

I counted at least 30 shots that would have been winners against any other players. I can't believe some of the crap these two were retrieving (especially Novak). It was ridiculous. I'm sure you've seen the 54 shot rally? There were at least 5 winners in that rally.

As far as court speed... Rafa used to play 10 feet behind the baseline. James Blake could hit through Rafa. Pretty much any aggressive HC player that didn't suck could. Hell, Ferrer beat him at the US Open. That has way less to do with court speed than where Rafa was standing. In the US Open final, he was pushed back into a defensive position by Novak in the second set and Novak was blasting winners past him left and right. Again, these guys are just flat out awesome. Transport either of these two back to 2003 when Roddick won his US Open, and Andy would get his ass handed to him by both these guys. You're watching two guys who will end up top 10 of all time when their careers finish. Andy Roddick is a one slam wonder with a limited game carried by a really good serve.

Now I completely feel you on the predictable slam final situation. As much as I love watching Rafa and Nole duke it out, I don't want every final to be these guys playing "who can retrieve more winners". So I hear you there. Hopefully, Del Potro can get back to his 2009 form. Or maybe Stan can take the next step. Or maybe one of the younger guys like Tomic can stop being a mug and take the next step.

Just be glad it isn't 2007 again, where every single slam had Federer versus some guy who couldn't beat him (except RG which had Nadal beating Roger's ass into the ground). Talk about predictable. And that shit lasted for YEARS. At least with Rafa and Nole, you aren't sure who is going to win until the match is almost over. Seriously, these two have crazy competitive matches.
yes even i dont want to watch just 1 guy dominating.2013 was very poor in terms of quality except the aussie open.i would loved to see two players with contrasting style in the final.rafa-novak is probably best rivarly right now but to see them in the final everytime is getting boring.it is sort of becoming very boring to see same bunch of players in all slam final everytime.i wish in 2014 someone apart from big 4 steps up.
And regarding speed nowadays they use very heavy balls and add lot of sand on the court which causes the ball to sit up and loop a lot of spin.many of those would be winners on fast courts.just see the tokya final between murray and nadal and far less short rallies.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:51 AM   #68
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

Well, during the Clay season Nadal was very passive, and does seem to capitalize on errors more than this Hard court season, but he did go aggressive this Hard court season (but his shots are still so boring to me). It is kinda boring seeing baseliner vs baseliner: they look like robots trying to retrieve the ball, and more or less it ends with an unforced error (with some forced errors too) from the aggressive shotmaker. I mean tennis is like a tactics game, but when your opponent could just retrieve the ball it kind of breaks the game a little (and it is more on outlasting than outwitting). So yeah, more variety is welcome, especially this season (the current healthy top players IMO are all baseliners, while aggressive players like Tsonga and Del Po if he's not in push-mode are not on par lately, while Federer is sadly in decline and Berdych seems to have a problem against Djokodal and is not that consistent). That said, USO 2013 Men's Finals was not boring, but I preferred some matches more than this.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:59 AM   #69
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Originally Posted by abhishek taluk View Post
yes even i dont want to watch just 1 guy dominating.2013 was very poor in terms of quality except the aussie open.i would loved to see two players with contrasting style in the final.rafa-novak is probably best rivarly right now but to see them in the final everytime is getting boring.it is sort of becoming very boring to see same bunch of players in all slam final everytime.i wish in 2014 someone apart from big 4 steps up.
Well it's hardly their fault if nobody is stepping up. Tomic could really do something, but he needs a proper coach, needs to improve his awful movement, stamina etc, others as well have too many holes in their games.
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:10 AM   #70
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Well, during the Clay season Nadal was very passive, and does seem to capitalize on errors more than this Hard court season, but he did go aggressive this Hard court season (but his shots are still so boring to me). It is kinda boring seeing baseliner vs baseliner: they look like robots trying to retrieve the ball, and more or less it ends with an unforced error (with some forced errors too) from the aggressive shotmaker. I mean tennis is like a tactics game, but when your opponent could just retrieve the ball it kind of breaks the game a little (and it is more on outlasting than outwitting). So yeah, more variety is welcome, especially this season (the current healthy top players IMO are all baseliners, while aggressive players like Tsonga and Del Po if he's not in push-mode are not on par lately, while Federer is sadly in decline and Berdych seems to have a problem against Djokodal and is not that consistent). That said, USO 2013 Men's Finals was not boring, but I preferred some matches more than this.
I feel like you want a brand of tennis that hasn't existed since the days of wooden rackets. Everyone is a baselined today. Because that's how the sport has evolved. You simply can't come to net all the time without getting passed. You have to build a point either with a great first serve or from the baseline and press only when you have a clear advantage.

There are tactics all over the place in this match. Defensive slices. Lobs. Drop shots. Volleys. Back and forth rallies until an advantage is gained. I don't understand how you guys can possibly be complaining about it (other than your player didn't win).
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:38 AM   #71
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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I feel like you want a brand of tennis that hasn't existed since the days of wooden rackets. Everyone is a baselined today. Because that's how the sport has evolved. You simply can't come to net all the time without getting passed. You have to build a point either with a great first serve or from the baseline and press only when you have a clear advantage.

There are tactics all over the place in this match. Defensive slices. Lobs. Drop shots. Volleys. Back and forth rallies until an advantage is gained. I don't understand how you guys can possibly be complaining about it (other than your player didn't win).
People complain just for the sake of complaining. Argue just for the sake of arguing. Predict just for the sake of predicting. Despite of course consciously knowing how useless and baseless their arguments, complaints and predictions can be. Then again that would defeat the purpose of a forum board so I guess it's ok. The Golden Era of tennis is somehow the bad era the more you read these days.....people just need something to talk about that's all. It's always the same.
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:55 AM   #72
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Well it's hardly their fault if nobody is stepping up. Tomic could really do something, but he needs a proper coach, needs to improve his awful movement, stamina etc, others as well have too many holes in their games.
yes its not their fault.surface homogenisation is really hurting tennis.the courts promote counterpunching tennis and it is really difficult to start playing like that at young age.and regarding tomic he is overrated.with his height he cant move like murray and play like him.he must use his height for power not for playing like murray.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:07 AM   #73
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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Interesting. I bet this will cause a lot of controversy. I think at the end of the day we all have styles we like and players we like, and tennis we personally find exciting.
Personally I don't think you can say Rafole matches like AO 2012 and US Open 2011 are boring, but that is just my opinion
I like how you named matches that he lost.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:12 AM   #74
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

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yes its not their fault.surface homogenisation is really hurting tennis.the courts promote counterpunching tennis and it is really difficult to start playing like that at young age.and regarding tomic he is overrated.with his height he cant move like murray and play like him.he must use his height for power not for playing like murray.
Del Potro and Berdych are even taller and move far better, he can certainly improve a lot, but doesn't seem interested that much, I guess it's hard work
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:22 AM   #75
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Default Re: Pat Cash : Are Rafael Nadal Nadal and Novak Djokovic boring?

Pat Cash was sucking Nadal's dick in 2008/2009.
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