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Old 11-09-2011, 02:22 AM   #46
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Grassquet View Post
Abortion is fine. Pro-life people are weird.
I don't like the term 'pro-life'. It doesn't really define those morons. I prefer to call them 'anti-choice'. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... for zygotes. Once you are out of the womb, the right wing, religious lunatics have no interest in your rights.

There is no logic to their position. As Sam Harris pointed out, every time you scratch your nose you are committing a holocaust of potential human beings. Therefore, this whole argument about the rights of potential human beings is utterly absurd.

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Old 11-09-2011, 02:59 AM   #47
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
I don't like the term 'pro-life'. It doesn't really define those morons. I prefer to call them 'anti-choice'. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... for zygotes. Once you are out of the womb, the right wing, religious lunatics have no interest in your rights.

There is no logic to their position. As Sam Harris pointed out, every time you scratch your nose you are committing a holocaust of potential human beings. Therefore, this whole argument about the rights of potential human beings is utterly absurd.
Cells on the nose are not (yet) potential human life. They are component parts of a multicellular organism. Even if we were capable of cloning them into human beings, they still aren't potential human life, as such, because their developmental trajectory is to act as nose cells and then die. Removing their nuclei and injecting into human egg cells renders them something altogether different.

Zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are human lire. They are not component parts of their mother or father, but rather distinct organisms. They are not potential human life, they are human life.

They are

1.) alive: meet all the major criteria of living things

2.) distinct: they're not clones of the parents or components of a multicellular organism or colony

2.) human: genetically they are not centipedes or oak trees, they're genetically human

Ask any biologist or botanist whether this:



or this:



is as much of an oak plant as this:



And he will laugh at you. The answer is obvious to any biologist or botanist.

It's only liberal liars/feminists who want to get rid of inconvenient people and slutty women and their male and female enablers that are all gung-ho about abortion.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:20 AM   #48
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Cells on the nose are not (yet) potential human life.
Yes, they are. Just because we do not have the means to put them under the correct pressure to fulfill that potential does not mean that the potential is not there.

Quote:
They are component parts of a multicellular organism. Even if we were capable of cloning them into human beings, they still aren't potential human life, as such, because their developmental trajectory is to act as nose cells and then die. Removing their nuclei and injecting into human egg cells renders them something altogether different.

Zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are human lire. They are not component parts of their mother or father, but rather distinct organisms. They are not potential human life, they are human life.
No, they are potential human life. For them to become human, they must got through a long process. It certainly is not a given that this process will be completed.

Human:



Not human:

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Old 11-09-2011, 03:26 AM   #49
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Yes, they are. Just because we do not have the means to put them under the correct pressure to fulfill that potential does not mean that the potential is not there.



No, they are potential human life. For them to become human, they must got through a long process. It certainly is not a given that this process will be completed.

Human:



Not human:

What a joke you are. Biologically they are BOTH human and they are alive. The embryo, the baby, the old woman - all human life.

Barnacle nauplius:



the same barnacles as adults:



Only an idiot would think that a stage in the life cycle that doesn't closely resemble the adult is not alive.

But then again, Clydey, I am not surprised...
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:29 AM   #50
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
What a joke you are. Biologically they are BOTH human and they are alive. The embryo, the baby, the old woman - all human life.
Biologically they are both human? What an absurd claim. In order for that to be the case, at the very least consciousness is required.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:34 AM   #51
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Biologically they are both human? What an absurd claim. In order for that to be the case, at the very least consciousness is required.
What the hell are you talking about? Is an anesthetized human being no longer human? What about a comatose human being?

Is a dead cat no longer a cat? Is a hibernating bear no longer a bear? Is a pupating moth no longer a moth?

When did consciousness ever become part of the criteria in determining 1.) species and 2.) alive/dead/inanimate status?

For that matter, when did brain activity or even the existence of a brain ever become part of the criteria in determining 1.) species and 2.) alive/dead/inanimate status?

It didn't. Consciousness and the brain have zilch to do with life status and species determination.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:50 AM   #52
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
What the hell are you talking about? Is an anesthetized human being no longer human? What about a comatose human being?
You have completely missed the point. You are using the wrong definition of consciousness. I am referring to the awareness of one's own existence, not the state of being awake.

Quote:
Is a dead cat no longer a cat? Is a hibernating bear no longer a bear? Is a pupating moth no longer a moth?
We don't know if those species are conscious in the more abstract sense of the word. However, I'll take the bait for the sake of argument. Just because something is dead does not mean it was never conscious. A dead human is a still a human because it was a conscious entity. You are arguing that those cells are living human beings, so the above questions simply are not relevant to what you are proposing.

Quote:
When did consciousness ever become part of the criteria in determining 1.) species and 2.) alive/dead/inanimate status?

For that matter, when did brain activity or even the existence of a brain ever become part of the criteria in determining 1.) species and 2.) alive/dead/inanimate status?
Consciousness is something all humans have in common. It is obviously central to how we define what is to be human.

Do believe zygotes have a soul?
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:54 AM   #53
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
You have completely missed the point. You are using the wrong definition of consciousness. I am referring to the awareness of one's own existence, not the state of being awake.



We don't know if those species are conscious in the more abstract sense of the word. However, I'll take the bait for the sake of argument. Just because something is dead does not mean it was never conscious. A dead human is a still a human because it was a conscious entity. You are arguing that those cells are living human beings, so the above questions simply are not relevant to what you are proposing.



Consciousness is something all humans have in common. It is obviously central to how we define what is to be human.

Do believe zygotes have a soul?
This is philosophical bullsh!t. Consciousness has no relevance to the basic biological questions of whether something is alive and what taxonomic species we can classify it to.

An embryonic human may not resemble an adult human in its morphology, and it may not be conscious of itself (we don't know that for sure, do we?), but it's origins, genetics, metabolism, etc. absolutely confirm that it is human.

So it's a living human.

You may want to divide humanity into different categories of those who are worthy of living and those who aren't, but you can't lie about the biology.

Whether or not human zygotes have a soul is besides the point I was making. I was arguing purely from the standpoint of biology. And I think my arguments are sound.

Abortion is destruction of human life. End of story.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:05 AM   #54
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
This is philosophical bullsh!t. Consciousness has no relevance to the basic biological questions of whether something is alive and what taxonomic species we can classify it to.
As I said, all humans have consciousness in common.

Quote:
An embryonic human may not resemble an adult human in its morphology, and it may not be conscious of itself (we don't know that for sure, do we?), but it's origins, genetics, metabolism, etc. absolutely confirm that it is human.
We may not be able to prove definitively that they are not conscious, but common sense should really prevail on this point.

Quote:
So it's a living human.
It is a potential human. If it is already a human it should be able to survive outside of the womb. We are not just talking aesthetics here, Aloimeh. Believe it or not, those 9 months have a purpose.

Quote:
You may want to divide humanity into different categories of those who are worthy of living and those who aren't, but you can't lie about the biology.
I distinguish between human and non-human.

Quote:
Whether or not human zygotes have a soul is besides the point I was making. I was arguing purely from the standpoint of biology. And I think my arguments are sound.
Biologically, they are not the same. See above.

I asked a simple question. Do zygotes have a soul, in your opinion?
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:13 AM   #55
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
As I said, all humans have consciousness in common.
A newborn has consciousness? How could you possibly know? They can't tell us how "self-aware" they are. As far as we know they are no more or less conscious than a kitten or a tadpole.

Quote:
We may not be able to prove definitively that they are not conscious, but common sense should really prevail on this point.
Why should it prevail here and not when it comes to not killing a living human?

Quote:
It is a potential human. If it is already a human it should be able to survive outside of the womb. We are not just talking aesthetics here, Aloimeh. Believe it or not, those 9 months have a purpose.
Wrong. Biologically it is human life. It is alive and it is Homo sapiens. A kangaroo joey after it is born needs to develop in its mother's pouch. It can't survive without this extra period of development. To claim that it is not alive or not a kangaroo is just...madness.

Quote:
I distinguish between human and non-human.
Clearly you don't because you fail to recognize that organisms in different stages of a life cycle are still very much alive and retain their species identity throughout that cycle. A barnacle doesn't switch it's identity as a barnacle when it shifts from nauplius to adult.

Quote:
Biologically, they are not the same. See above.
Biologically the zygote is alive and human.

Then again, what do you know about biology? You're supposedly a philosopher, and a bad one at that.

Quote:
I asked a simple question. Do zygotes have a soul, in your opinion?
I refuse to answer the question because 1.) I don't know for sure and 2.) it's nothing but a pure derailment on this thread, just like you did on the evolution thread.

Biologically zygotes derived from human egg and human sperm are living humans. You can come up with all sorts of excuses but they are just as human as a caterpillar is a butterfly.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:29 AM   #56
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
A newborn has consciousness? How could you possibly know? They can't tell us how "self-aware" they are. As far as we know they are no more or less conscious than a kitten or a tadpole.
Not being able to express consciousness does not mean that it isn't there. One major difference between a newborn and an embryo is a functioning brain. The origin of consciousness remains something of a mystery, but it is likely a product of the brain.

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Why should it prevail here and not when it comes to not killing a living human?
Because many people do not share your definition of a 'living human'.

Quote:
Wrong. Biologically it is human life. A kangaroo joey after it is born needs to develop in its mother's pouch. It can't survive without this extra period of development. To claim that it is not alive or not a kangaroo is just...madness.
That's great. A joey isn't a human, though. They are not defined in the same way.

Quote:
Clearly you don't because you fail to recognize that organisms in different stages of a life cycle are still very much alive and retain their species identity throughout that cycle. A barnacle doesn't switch it's identity as a barnacle when it shifts from nauplius to adult.
Again, those 9 months have a purpose.

Quote:
Biologically the zygote is alive and human.

Then again, what do you know about biology? You're supposedly a philosopher, and a bad one at that.
Social scientist, actually. Either way, you're bound to think I'm a 'bad' philosopher when we disagree about everything. We are fundamentally opposed.

Quote:
I refuse to answer the question because 1.) I don't know for sure and 2.) it's nothing but a pure derailment on this thread, just like you did on the evolution thread.

Biologically zygotes derived from human egg and human sperm are living humans. You can come up with all sorts of excuses but they are just as human as a caterpillar is a butterfly.
You won't answer because you know it's an untenable position.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:41 AM   #57
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Not being able to express consciousness does not mean that it isn't there. One major difference between a newborn and an embryo is a functioning brain. The origin of consciousness remains something of a mystery, but it is likely a product of the brain.
As you have no more evidence that it is there than you have for the zygote, common sense would dictate that we can apply your logic for zygotes to infants as well. Ergo, infants can be killed if inconvenient.

It is not known where consciousness is seated, much less generated. Evidence exists that the brain is the terminal physical conduit through which consciousness proceeds and is evidenced to scientific inquiry, but there is no evidence that it is generated by brain tissue.

Quote:
Because many people do not share your definition of a 'living human'.
It's the biological definition.

Quote:
That's great. A joey isn't a human, though. They are not defined in the same way.
Actually, biologically they are defined in an exactly analogous manner. Humans have a genus and a species classification. This is something you evolutionists are very proud of. So the same criteria that apply to the kangaroo apply to us. A kangaroo joey is just as much a living kangaroo as the adult. By analogous reasoning, a developing human zygote or embryo or fetus is just as much a living human as an adult.

Quote:
Again, those 9 months have a purpose.
We dealt with this before. You have no argument from biology why it is OK to kill a human embryo or fetus.

Quote:
Social scientist, actually. Either way, you're bound to think I'm a 'bad' philosopher when we disagree about everything. We are fundamentally opposed.
No, I think you are poor at arguing. I have been giving biological arguments here because I wanted to refute Verd & Dutchie's assertion that they were speaking from the lofty heights of biology. They weren't and I called them on it. Biology dictates otherwise, which is that human life is human life regardless of the stage of development it is at. Biology also would say nothing about the value of human life, which is why it is unwise to apply the amorality of biology to questions of human existence in the first place, elsewise we might find that there is no biological foundation for our morals or our laws.

But speaking from biology alone, abortion is the killing of a distinct living human. You can say it isn't a person, it doesn't have consciousness, doesn't feel pain, etc. (all of which are controversial statements in and of themselves), but you cannot claim that it is inanimate or dead or a parasite or a tumor or an organ of the mother or that it isn't human.

Even uneducated people who don't know anything of biology see this to be true. And there's the rub with abortion.

Quote:
You won't answer because you know it's an untenable position.
Again, you're trying to engage me into a maelstrom of religious argument even as I have strived to keep this discussion on biology alone. I know full well that I cannot wage arguments on the basis of religious belief with those who don't believe. Which is why I don't even try to do that. But I can discuss things from the biological perspective, especially when some pseudoscientists like Dutchie & Verd come on here, plaster their biology "credentials" all over the forum, and start spouting nonsense.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:59 AM   #58
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
As you have no more evidence that it is there than you have for the zygote, common sense would dictate that we can apply your logic for zygotes to infants as well. Ergo, infants can be killed if inconvenient.
I have already stated the major difference between a zygote and a baby is a functioning brain, which is likely the source of consciousness.

Quote:
It is not known where consciousness is seated, much less generated. Evidence exists that the brain is the terminal physical conduit through which consciousness proceeds and is evidenced to scientific inquiry, but there is no evidence that it is generated by brain tissue.
I did not say there was evidence. It is a best guess based on what we do know. You will no doubt cling to this lack of absolute certainty as if your life depends on it.

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It's the biological definition.
No, it isn't. There are clear, practical differences. A functioning brain, respiratory system, etc. are not merely morphological differences.

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Actually, biologically they are defined in an exactly analogous manner. Humans have a genus and a species classification. This is something you evolutionists are very proud of. So the same criteria that apply to the kangaroo apply to us. A kangaroo joey is just as much a living kangaroo as the adult. By analogous reasoning, a developing human zygote or embryo or fetus is just as much a living human as an adult.
They are not the same species, thus do not share a definition. A joey is a living, breathing entity. Not that it matters, since they are a different species. We are talking about human characteristics.

Quote:
No, I think you are poor at arguing. I have been giving biological arguments here because I wanted to refute Verd & Dutchie's assertion that they were speaking from the lofty heights of biology. They weren't and I called them on it. Biology dictates otherwise, which is that human life is human life regardless of the stage of development it is at. Biology also would say nothing about the value of human life, which is why it is unwise to apply the amorality of biology to questions of human existence in the first place, elsewise we might find that there is no biological foundation for our morals or our laws.

But speaking from biology alone, abortion is the killing of a distinct living human. You can say it isn't a person, it doesn't have consciousness, doesn't feel pain, etc. (all of which are controversial statements in and of themselves), but you cannot claim that it is inanimate or dead or a parasite or a tumor or an organ of the mother or that it isn't human.

Even uneducated people who don't know anything of biology see this to be true. And there's the rub with abortion.
All dealt with above. If a baby and a zygote are biologically identical we would only see morphological changes. We see much, much more than that. We see changes that are necessary for survival.

Quote:
Again, you're trying to engage me into a maelstrom of religious argument even as I have strived to keep this discussion on biology alone. I know full well that I cannot wage arguments on the basis of religious belief with those who don't believe. Which is why I don't even try to do that. But I can discuss things from the biological perspective, especially when some pseudoscientists like Dutchie & Verd come on here, plaster their biology "credentials" all over the forum, and start spouting nonsense.
This is exactly what you did to Peribsen. You cannot separate your religion from the views you are expressing. Your religious beliefs are fundamental to your views on abortion.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:21 AM   #59
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

I'm disappointed that all of you overlooked the only encouraging and positive post in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
Or take the other route like me. I got a vasectomy right after I turned 18, which was the minimum age that any of the doctors would do one (even with parental permission) or I'd have gotten one sooner. And even then, it was a hassle to get one of them to agree. That's another thing that needs changed.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:25 AM   #60
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Default Re: What are your thoughts on abortion?

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Originally Posted by Bibberz View Post
I'm disappointed that all of you overlooked the only encouraging and positive post in this thread:
The world cheered in unison.
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