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Old 04-27-2013, 07:55 PM   #181
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
In those events, how many players ranked above him has he beaten?
What on earth does that have to do with the fact that his performance is improving in those events? Your ridiculous claims keep being thrown right back in your face with facts and you keep moving that bar more and more. Incredible. Give it up already.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:56 PM   #182
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by MaratandMilos View Post
You criticize someone for picking and choosing facts (despite the fact that only one of us is looking at the entire picture with his win percentage improvement in all events and his rapid ranking rise in two years) and then do the very thing you disapprove of. Amazing stuff.
What facts have I been picking and choosing?

He has not improved at any of the Slam events since 2011. His best performance back then was R4 and he still hasn't managed to go past that.

He reached 2 QFs at a masters event - Cincy, which should suit him the most anyway and Toronto (and even that was only because Murray had retired). Other than that he hasn't done anything worth talking about.

If we are talking about improvement, then he should surely reach a quarter final at a Slam and a semi-final at a Masters event this year?
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:57 PM   #183
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Milos&Marat, you seem to be struggling to understand so I will break it down for you:

Is Milos more consistent? Yes
Has Milos improved? Yes
Is Milos a threat to the players ranked above him? No
Is there any evidence to say he will become a threat? No

It is as simple as that.

He has reached a glass ceiling in that he cannot get past the current crop of players that are in front of him.

Should all 12 of them retire and no decent youngsters appear then he might win an event of significance, but it won't be because he is a great player.
This is what you need to prove. Usually players improve after 22yo, but you're expecting Raonic to break this trend ie you basically he will stagnate and never show any improvement. The onus of backing up these statements is on you

I, on the other hand, say that he will be ranked higher than he is now, get better Slam and Masters results that he has so far, etc... within the next five years.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:58 PM   #184
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by MaratandMilos View Post
What on earth does that have to do with the fact that his performance is improving in those events? Your ridiculous claims keep being thrown right back in your face with facts and you keep moving that bar more and more. Incredible. Give it up already.


Do you really just ask that first question? Seriously?

Take a look at the career of David Ferrer, he, like Milos, has made a career out of beating lesser players. When it comes to winning the big events he can't, because he cannot beat the best players out there.

Very much like Milos.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:00 PM   #185
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
This is what you need to prove. Usually players improve after 22yo, but you're expecting Raonic to break this trend ie you basically he will stagnate and never show any improvement. The onus of backing up these statements is on you

I, on the other hand, say that he will be ranked higher than he is now, get better Slam and Masters results that he has so far, etc... within the next five years.
Where did I say the his current glass ceiling would always be his glass ceiling? In previous threads I have mentioned time and again he could achieve some great things, but he has huge improvements to make.

As it stands he is not making any great strides and seems to be stagnating. This is backed up by his results.

As it stands he has made lots of improvements in terms of consistency in beating those ranked below him but remains a near walkover for the top guys in the events that really matter.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:00 PM   #186
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Has Milos improved? Yes
You said earlier in the thread that he hadn't improved. What changed your mind?

Quote:
Is Milos a threat to the players ranked above him? No
He's beaten Murray twice, Berdych once, Gasquet once, Cilic once, Tipsarevic twice, Almagro twice and played three incredibly competitive 3 set matches against Roger Federer. So yes, he does seem to be a threat to many of those ranked ahead of him.

Quote:
Is there any evidence to say he will become a threat? No
Except for the wins he already has against players ranked ahead of him and the fact that he's improving at a good rate which suggests there is better play to come (which I have proved many times over already).
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:02 PM   #187
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

Reading this thread back I almost forgot Nadal beat Milos today....
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:02 PM   #188
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

2nd set was disgusting. One thing to take bribes from Toni, another to make it 100% obvious. Could at least pretend to play tennis
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:03 PM   #189
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by MaratandMilos View Post
You said earlier in the thread that he hadn't improved. What changed your mind?
Sorry, should have clarified. He has improved a little, but nowhere near as much as you make out.

It's why he cannot win matches in events that actually matter.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:03 PM   #190
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by MaratandMilos View Post
You said earlier in the thread that he hadn't improved. What changed your mind?


He's beaten Murray twice, Berdych once, Gasquet once, Cilic once, Tipsarevic twice, Almagro twice and played three incredibly competitive 3 set matches against Roger Federer. So yes, he does seem to be a threat to many of those ranked ahead of him.


Except for the wins he already has against players ranked ahead of him and the fact that he's improving at a good rate which suggests there is better play to come (which I have proved many times over already).
Yes he has beaten Murray twice but how did he do against him when it really mattered?

He got routined.

Same story against Federer.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:03 PM   #191
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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What facts have I been picking and choosing?

He has not improved at any of the Slam events since 2011. His best performance back then was R4 and he still hasn't managed to go past that.

He reached 2 QFs at a masters event - Cincy, which should suit him the most anyway and Toronto (and even that was only because Murray had retired). Other than that he hasn't done anything worth talking about.

If we are talking about improvement, then he should surely reach a quarter final at a Slam and a semi-final at a Masters event this year?
I don't know if he'll reach a QF at a slam or a SF at a M1000, though I'd certainly love to see it and I do think he's quite capable.

It's beyond obvious that he's improving, though. His match record (both in the small events and the big ones) supports that as I just showed:

Quote:
2010 slams: 0% (0-1)
2011 slams: 57% (4-3)
2012 slams: 67% (8-4)
2013 slams: 75% (3-1)

2010 T1000: 0% (0-1)
2011 T1000: 42% (5-7)
2012 T1000: 53% (9-8)
2013 T1000: 60% (3-2)
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:05 PM   #192
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Yes he has beaten Murray twice but how did he do against him when it really mattered?

He got routined.

Same story against Federer.
And he'll get better for having played those matches and gained that experience. He just has to apply the same level that he beat Murray at and challenged Federer into the slams.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:06 PM   #193
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Originally Posted by MaratandMilos View Post
I don't know if he'll reach a QF at a slam or a SF at a M1000, though I'd certainly love to see it and I do think he's quite capable.

It's beyond obvious that he's improving, though. His match record (both in the small events and the big ones) supports that as I just showed:
Again, you are cherry-picking statistics in order to help your argument.

Nobody is denying he isn't more consistent in beating lesser-ranked players, but how many players ranked above him has he beaten at a Masters or Slam event?
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:08 PM   #194
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Do you really just ask that first question? Seriously?

Take a look at the career of David Ferrer, he, like Milos, has made a career out of beating lesser players. When it comes to winning the big events he can't, because he cannot beat the best players out there.

Very much like Milos.
David Ferrer is 31 years old, has been on tour for a decade, has no real chance of improving, and has no weapons to use. Milos Raonic is 22, is in his 2nd full year on tour, has a major chance of improving significantly, and has major weapons. Great comparison there.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:10 PM   #195
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Default Re: Barcelona SF: Nadal roasts Raonic 6-4 6-0

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Where did I say the his current glass ceiling would always be his glass ceiling? In previous threads I have mentioned time and again he could achieve some great things, but he has huge improvements to make.

As it stands he is not making any great strides and seems to be stagnating. This is backed up by his results.

As it stands he has made lots of improvements in terms of consistency in beating those ranked below him but remains a near walkover for the top guys in the events that really matter.
I disagree. He is now in that group of players who are inferior to the top 8 but above the rest of the field - along with Gasquet, Cilic, Tipsarevic, Nishikori, Almagro, etc... this is definitely better than he was 12 months ago.

Is he a threat to win Slams or Masters now? I don't think anyone believes he is. He could maybe beat one top player if he catches fire, but that's all. But, conversely, he's 22yo, which means the best years of his career are ahead of him and not behind him - he has time to improve on all aspects of his game. Eventually, someone apart from Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, JMDP and Murray will win a Slam and Raonic is obviously one of those who could do it.
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