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View Poll Results: Is del Potro the fifth best tennis player on planet Earth at the moment?

Yes, easily 81 29.14%
It's between him and Berdych/Tsonga or both 59 21.22%
No, Ferrer is 110 39.57%
He's one of the best four 28 10.07%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-23-2013, 11:17 AM   #151
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathless Mortal View Post
It's not like he was randomly given his ranking. He earned it. The fact that Del Potro is unable to get as high in the rankings is his problem. And no, it's not about the vulturing, as the other thread perfectly showed that Delpo is a bigger vulture of the two.
What? They have the same career high ranking and Delpo was #4 ahead of Murray when Murray has already been ranked inside of top4. Ferrer was (the 1st time) ranked ahead of Murray only for a few weeks because that's exactly the period Murray was building his ranking and making his breakthrough. Also Delpo didn't need 1 of the top4 to have an injury and be out for 8 months to be ranked #4.

And this 'since his Slam' BS people are using here is stupid. That Slam happened and it eclipses anything Ferrer has done.

I don't like people voting for Ferrer here only because they dislike Lenders and his anti-Ferrer propaganda.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:20 AM   #152
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
I don't agree with this. I use to fear Tsonga more than Delpo and Berdych (I don't fear Berdych at all ).

Not saying Delpo's wins aren't legit, but out of those 3, 1st was due to ret. and you know that if Novak wasn't injured in that match, he would beat Delpo. He would retire against Tsonga and maybe even Berdych too. As for the 2nd match, I feel that Tsonga and even Berdych would beat him in the bronze match. He was so disappointed that he couldn't get the gold that he didn't care much for the bronze he already had.

I do 'fear' Delpo more than Tsonga atm, but that's just in my eyes, seeing them play and Tsonga being in a not so good form for almost a year now, not because of those wins, imo, those wins don't mean a thing.

And those coulda woulda shouldas, I don't count. I mean, you chose to ignore Tsonga's mps but underline Delpo's set and break up. We all know that being a set and a break up against Novak doesn't have to mean a thing.
Hence why I'm giving the general H2H and not cherry picking matches, should we scratch the Cincy match last year (or even USO) - if you remember that came days after Delpo beat Troicki using only very poor slices and was struggling a lot with the wrist. Yes, Delpo's win in DC was vs an injured Djokovic, but Djokovic has also beaten injured Delpo. All in all though, since 2011 JMDP is the only player below the top 4 who hasn't been totally dominated by Novak. Also, I have serious doubts Tsonga or Berdych could beat Novak with a medal on the line, but won't exclude the possibility; it did mean something to him though, he was in tears afterwards. Those two did have chances to beat a 'poor/tired' Novak (namely Berdych in WTF 2011), they just didn't take them.

Tsonga's match points would put him 1-7 vs Novak since 2011, hence why I did not mention them. Had Del Potro made the point for double break in WTF he'd be 4-4 now in all likelihood. It's pretty evident that no one else below the current top 4 gives as much trouble to Novak: that's the point I'm making here, the exact numbers are immaterial.

He's 17-0 vs Tsonga and Berdych since he became the top dog, with a lot of routine wins. He's 5-3 against JMDP, who can make him work for it even while not fully fit (see USO last year). The reason for this is clear: Berdych and Tsonga need to redline their game to compete/beat him, Del Potro is not. His usual point construction is enough to compete on even terms with Novak (given, of course, a chance to chance confidence/momentum over a period of decent health).
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:27 AM   #153
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Well, you shouldn't

H2H since Novak became the top player in 2011:

vs Tsonga - 8-0 (17-3 in sets)

vs Berdych - 9-0 (18-4 in sets)

vs Del Potro - 5-3 (could easily be 4-4 since he was a set and a break up in WTF semis).


Novak is dominating 'inconsistent' big hitters in the same way Federer in his prime did. You might not feel the difference between facing Tsonga/Berdych or Delpo, but Novak sure does Even slightly injured JMDP is usually more of a handful to him.
your posts disgust me......injured Delpo this injured that well screw him and his injuries.........he fluked every win he has over Novak
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:32 AM   #154
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by decrepitude View Post
For a supposedly "unbiased analyst" (in his own opinion), Lenders is sure good at biased polls.
Yep, my thoughts exactly. But then again the whole thing really is about liking one player and dislking another.
A simple matter of taste. Only with a huge fuss being made about it...
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:32 AM   #155
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
your posts disgust me......injured Delpo this injured that well screw him and his injuries.........he fluked every win he has over Novak
Sounds legit

That said, I do agree he kinda 'fluked' the first one, Novak probably would have beaten him in DC if healthy. The other two were definitely not 'fluked', he just executed better than Novak in big points.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:34 AM   #156
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Hence why I'm giving the general H2H and not cherry picking matches, should we scratch the Cincy match last year (or even USO) - if you remember that came days after Delpo beat Troicki using only very poor slices and was struggling a lot with the wrist. Yes, Delpo's win in DC was vs an injured Djokovic, but Djokovic has also beaten injured Delpo. All in all though, since 2011 JMDP is the only player below the top 4 who hasn't been totally dominated by Novak. Also, I have serious doubts Tsonga or Berdych could beat Novak with a medal on the line, but won't exclude the possibility; it did mean something to him though, he was in tears afterwards. Those two did have chances to beat a 'poor/tired' Novak (namely Berdych in WTF 2011), they just didn't take them.

Tsonga's match points would put him 1-7 vs Novak since 2011, hence why I did not mention them. Had Del Potro made the point for double break in WTF he'd be 4-4 now in all likelihood. It's pretty evident that no one else below the current top 4 gives as much trouble to Novak.

He's 17-0 vs Tsonga and Berdych since he became the top dog, with a lot of routine wins. He's 5-3 against JMDP, who can make him work for it even while not fully fit (see USO last year). The reason for this is clear: Berdych and Tsonga need to redline their game to compete/beat him, Del Potro is not. His usual point construction is enough to compete on even terms with Novak (given, of course, a chance to chance confidence/momentum over a period of decent health).
Why wouldn't Tsogna be able to beat Novak in that match? He's a superior grass player to Delpo. So is Berdych, he would would probably choke. I wanted to say that Delpo was 'lucky' that he was given to play Novak in those particular matches. Had he played him on 2 different occasions, I wouldn't be surprised if the H2H since 2011 was 7-1 (7-0 until few weeks ago).

And why are we even focusing on Novak? Against the top4 they basically have the same credentials. Berdych is the best vs Fed and Murray. Tsonga is the only one who beat them all in Slams. Delpo overall looks as the biggest threat to them and only one who has beaten them all more than once. Atm he is the slightly bigger threat to the top4, but not over the course of their careers.

But he is the best player between them, his Slam alone validates that. Also the career high ranking and his H2H against them...
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:39 AM   #157
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Sounds legit

That said, I do agree he kinda 'fluked' the first one, Novak probably would have beaten him in DC if healthy. The other two were definitely not 'fluked', he just executed better than Novak in big points.
he beat him fair on grass of course and in IW but that IW match was a fluke in essence that something happened with Novak in the 3rd set and he stopped playing god knows what
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:49 AM   #158
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
he beat him fair on grass of course and in IW but that IW match was a fluke in essence that something happened with Novak in the 3rd set and he stopped playing god knows what
Can you shut up and stop embarrassing the Nole fan base? You pathetic whiner, go tell everyone how Rafa will beat Novak next time on clay and how Novak is a stupid loser and choker who can fuck off. Oh yeah, you do that only in the livescore thread, but you act as Novak's #1 fan in other threads.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:52 AM   #159
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
Why wouldn't Tsogna be able to beat Novak in that match? He's a superior grass player to Delpo. So is Berdych, he would would probably choke. I wanted to say that Delpo was 'lucky' that he was given to play Novak in those particular matches. Had he played him on 2 different occasions, I wouldn't be surprised if the H2H since 2011 was 7-1 (7-0 until few weeks ago).

And why are we even focusing on Novak? Against the top4 they basically have the same credentials. Berdych is the best vs Fed and Murray. Tsonga is the only one who beat them all in Slams. Delpo overall looks as the biggest threat to them and only one who has beaten them all more than once. Atm he is the slightly bigger threat to the top4, but not over the course of their careers.

But he is the best player between them, his Slam alone validates that. Also the career high ranking and his H2H against them...
See Wimbledon semi 2011. Even on grass, Tsonga is very prone to overhitting against the best players. Not saying he didn't have a chance, but I wouldn't put much faith on it. Especially not if he came off a 19-17 third set defeat two days before. Not sure about 'luck', I mean for instance if he had been given the chance to play Novak in WTF 2011 like Berdych I do believe he'd have beaten him there surely... but that's besides the point, in this case the numbers happen to validate my observations, but I'd have this opinion even if they didn't. Those two are fitter/healthier than JMDP and their performances vs the top guys don't fluctuate as much, but JMDP is a bigger threat. The top 4 know and are on record saying as much that, unlike Tsonga or Berdych, when he peaks JMDP is not only a 'threat' to them but every bit as good as them and can match them from the baseline without taking extraordinary risks.

We're focusing on Novak because Saberq claimed that Tsonga and Berdych made him just as 'nervous' (or not nervous) as JMDP. I disagree that he's not a bigger threat over the course of their careers though: before his surgery, not only was he a threat, he was actually one of the four best players in the world. The only period where those two were a bigger threat to the elite than JMDP was from mid-2011 to mid-2012 imo. The point I'm making here is that JMDP is more than a 'threat' to them, given a decent run of health he can match them and go toe to toe with them on a tennis court - he doesn't beat them by redlining his game on a random day and blowing them off the court, but by outplaying and outmanouevering them. Berdych and Tsonga are the defintion of 'threats': with the exception of Berdych vs Federer (a matchup Berdych can win with his normal patterns), they are guys who can catch fire on any given day and take out anyone, but who can't really hit through the top guys with their usual point construction, at least not on slow courts. Del Potro is nothing like that: he's 5-5 in the past 10 matches vs the top 4, he was 5-4 vs Fedal in 2009 - when he manages a period of semi-decent health (and therefore form) he can go toe to toe with them playing his normal game: not catching fire and taking one of them out, but matching them blow for blow.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:58 AM   #160
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
See Wimbledon semi 2011. Even on grass, Tsonga is very prone to overhitting against the best players. Not saying he didn't have a chance, but I wouldn't put much faith on it. Especially not if he came off a 19-17 third set defeat two days before. Not sure about 'luck', I mean for instance if he had been given the chance to play Novak in WTF 2011 like Berdych I do believe he'd have beaten him there surely... but that's besides the point, in this case the numbers happen to validate my observations, but I'd have this opinion even if they didn't. Those two are fitter/healthier than JMDP and their performances vs the top guys don't fluctuate as much, but JMDP is a bigger threat. The top 4 know and are on record saying as much that, unlike Tsonga or Berdych, when he peaks JMDP is not only a 'threat' to them but every bit as good as them and can match them from the baseline without taking extraordinary risks.

We're focusing on Novak because Saberq claimed that Tsonga and Berdych made him just as 'nervous' (or not nervous) as JMDP. I disagree that he's not a bigger threat over the course of their careers though: before his surgery, not only was he a threat, he was actually one of the four best players in the world. The only period where those two were a bigger threat to the elite than JMDP was from mid-2011 to mid-2012 imo. The point I'm making here is that JMDP is more than a 'threat' to them, given a decent run of health he can match them and go toe to toe with them on a tennis court - he doesn't beat them by redlining his game on a random day and blowing them off the court, but by outplaying and outmanouevering them. Berdych and Tsonga are the defintion of 'threats': with the exception of Berdych vs Federer (a matchup Berdych can win with his normal patterns), they are guys who can catch fire on any given day and take out anyone, but who can't really hit through the top guys with their usual point construction, at least not on slow courts. Del Potro is nothing like that: he's 5-5 in the past 10 matches vs the top 4, he was 5-4 vs Fedal in 2009 - when he manages a period of semi-decent health (and therefore form) he can go toe to toe with them playing his normal game: not catching fire and taking one of them out, but matching them blow for blow.

I do agree. I am so disappointed with Delpo because back in 2010 I though he would actually be a regular top4 (or top5 then) player and that he will be fighting with Murray for the #4 spot all the time. To me, he was always the best out of the 2nd 4. I'm just trying to be objective here and let the results speak for themselves.
And I guarantee you that most of these posters who are defending Ferrer had similar thoughts back then.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:08 PM   #161
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
I do agree. I am so disappointed with Delpo because back in 2010 I though he would actually be a regular top4 (or top5 then) player and that he will be fighting with Murray for the #4 spot all the time. To me, he was always the best out of the 2nd 4. I'm just trying to be objective here and let the results speak for themselves.
And I guarantee you that most of these posters who are defending Ferrer had similar thoughts back then.
Yup, I thought back then that one day he and Djokovic would be the best players in tennis (post Fedal), but only Novak lived up to the billing. Not really fair to be disappointed with Delpo though, his 'fall' has mostly been for reasons out of his control; he was just very unlucky, won't be the first or last elite athlete to be derailed by serious injury(ies)/surgery. He's doing well all things considered and I hope he can still improve. At least he's back playing well now, which is more than can be said for most players who endure major surgeries.

Still, even post-surgery Del Potro is still easily the best of that so-called 'second 4' - and the one that the 'first 4' fear the most -, in fact I'm not sure he should be grouped with them at all but ok. And yes, I have no doubts that some of the posters now defending Ferrer were bangwagoning JMDP back in 2009/2010
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:17 PM   #162
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

Reality and facts blur into one when Lender's types.

Fact becomes fiction, fiction becomes fact.

It's amusing to watch.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:28 PM   #163
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Well, you shouldn't

H2H since Novak became the top player in 2011:

vs Tsonga - 8-0 (17-3 in sets)

vs Berdych - 9-0 (18-4 in sets)

vs Del Potro - 5-3 (could easily be 4-4 since he was a set and a break up in WTF semis).


Novak is dominating 'inconsistent' big hitters in the same way Federer in his prime did. You might not feel the difference between facing Tsonga/Berdych or Delpo, but Novak sure does Even slightly injured JMDP is usually more of a handful to him.
Honestly Lenders, it's a disgrace ! You include the Davis Cup match, while Djokovic was completely injured ! And you said that Del Potro could win in WTF, but Djokovic can also win in Indian Wells (led 3-0 in the deciding set). If you was honest, you should say that it is 5-2. Another thing, the closest to beat Novak in a Grand Slam was Tsonga (Wimbledon 2011 and mainly French Open 2012) !
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:32 PM   #164
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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I don't like people voting for Ferrer here only because they dislike Lenders and his anti-Ferrer propaganda.
Lol, people are voting for Ferrer because it's the correct answer. Simple as that. And I don't dislike Lenders'... the bloke has grown on me lately... Just trying to inform the intellectual masses of MTF that the Ferrer trolling is just that.. Trolling..

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Old 04-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #165
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Default Re: The reality is that del Potro is easily the fifth best tennis player in the world

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Originally Posted by Federer-Fan View Post
Honestly Lenders, it's a disgrace ! You include the Davis Cup match, while Djokovic was completely injured ! And you said that Del Potro could win in WTF, but Djokovic can also win in Indian Wells (led 3-0 in the deciding set). If you was honest, you should say that it is 5-2. Another thing, the closest to beat Novak in a Grand Slam was Tsonga (Wimbledon 2011 and mainly French Open 2012) !
I included every match. If we're excluding DC, let's exclude at least Cincy as well where Del Potro was clearly injured and make it 4-2? That said, the numbers are secondary, they merely confirm a reality that you can observe on court ie that Del Potro is capable of going toe to toe with Novak with his usual point construction, unlike Tsonga and Berdych.

I love Tsonga, but Del Potro is clearly the better player of the two (in fact Tsonga can't even match post-surgery JMDP in any way), Jo himself admitted as much last year prior and after his match with DelPo in Marseille. I think Jo's absolute peak level is higher, but he really needs to redline his game to stand up to the top guys - and that will be the case until his BH becomes a more stable shot.
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