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View Poll Results: Challenger points?

Less 7 17.07%
Leave it as it is 22 53.66%
More 7 17.07%
I don't care, post your crap elsewhere 5 12.20%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-23-2012, 03:33 PM   #1
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Default Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

Since the new ranking system was introduced a few years ago, challengers have given the winners of tournaments between 80 and 125 points, depending on the grade (prize money) of the tournament.

There has been lots of complaints about players like Go Soeda acquiring too many points for the work they do, not having to beat that many good players to win the challengers they play.

So if you don't think so, what should be the weighting of the points? More or less? Do you think European challengers should be given more importance?

Post your thoughts and vote in the poll.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

Last option.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

they should increase prize money at challengers. points, just leave it as it is.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

What Alex said + increase the points for the CH finals. Make it 200 points for undefeated winner. Like 30 for every RR win +45 for a SF win +65 for a F win. Finals shouldn't be just another 125 CH.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

I think the ranking system is quite ok.

There is a structural problem in the relation between the amount of points awarded by the challenger tour and the amount of points awarded by the ATP system for the first rounds. A challenger can give you more points than a third round in GS, which is often more difficult to achieve if you're not seeded. Often if you are seed in the challengers, it will be a lot easier to get big points than if you aren't seed in a little ATP tournament...
So you have a lot of players who are doing very well on the challengers tours, being in the top 100 - even top 70 or better - like Lorenzi, Soeda Zeballos... but doing crap on the ATP Tour. The logic of the system creates situation every year of players who climb very fast in the rankings because they play good tennis during one month at the challenger level but not being able to deal with the ATP tour. And the year after they disappear of the top 100 if they play the tournaments of the ATP that their rankings afford them to play.
This works like this since 2009.

But I think this is just a little problem and that you have to let the ranking system as he is now because he gives more importance to the victory than before. A 125K challenger give the half of a 250 tournament for the winner, it sounds right for me. The problem is that often, big challengers are located in Asia where the list are usually weaker than in Europe or America. So the kind of players like Soeda will always happen with this system. But it's not a big problem in my opinion...
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

yup, Adri89 has some great points. btw Bulldog, refreshing thread. however just wait till someone shows up and start talking about Nole, Fed and Rafa, lol.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

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yup, Adri89 has some great points. btw Bulldog, refreshing thread. however just wait till someone shows up and start talking about Nole, Fed and Rafa, lol.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

I think the best challengers should get a little bit more points, the worst ones should get a little bit less. I think there's not enough difference, people always speak on this forum of "challengers" in general but there's a very big difference between the best ones and the worst ones, and I think the ranking system doesn't mirror enough that difference.

The only objective way to do it is based on prize money, you can't say "more for European challengers, less for Asian or SouthAmerican ones".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adri89 View Post
The problem is that often, big challengers are located in Asia where the list are usually weaker than in Europe or America.
I wouldn't say that "the big challengers are in Asia" : the challengers in Asia overall give more prize money than their level would suggest (but they cost more for most players, and well that's a good compensation) then they also give a little bit more points than their level, considering that the objectivity of the system makes a connection between prize money and points,

but among the challengers which give most prize money, there are more European ones.
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Last edited by duong : 11-23-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

Thanks to the three of you. You all made very valid points. Prize money must increase, that's a given. I like uxyzapenje's point about the CTF. That's the marquee event, and perhaps deserves more recognition in terms of points. It's already worth more than $200k, so I think 125 points for an undefeated champion is a little on the short side. Adri went into great detail about it, and I fully agree with him. A lot of great challenger players break onto the ATP tour, and have what I like to call 'second season syndrome'. Most will say they are not good enough for the ATP tour, but I think it's more about adjustment.

As they say, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

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Thanks to the three of you. You all made very valid points.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

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I think the best challengers should get a little bit more points, the worst ones should get a little bit less.

The only objective way to do it is based on prize money, you can't just say "more for European challengers, less for Asian or SouthAmerican ones".
Indeed. It would be a possibility to discriminate based in geography, but I don't think it would be fair.

In other sports, there are rankings systems which give a tournament points corresponding to the strength of its field. That would be quite complicated to undertake, though.

Yeah, I think there should be a minimum of 60 and a maximum of 150, or maybe a bit narrower. There's a big difference between the Orleans challenger (125) and the Panama City challenger (80), a bigger difference than 45 points worth of quality in my opinion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

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Originally Posted by Alex999 View Post
yup, Adri89 has some great points. btw Bulldog, refreshing thread. however just wait till someone shows up and start talking about Nole, Fed and Rafa, lol.
Indeed. Someone's already burst the bubble, in fact.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

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Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
increase the points for the CH finals. Make it 200 points for undefeated winner. Like 30 for every RR win +45 for a SF win +65 for a F win. Finals shouldn't be just another 125 CH.
I don't agree with that : so far it doesn't deserve that, very very late in the year, not many players who are theoretically qualified want to go or are well prepared, the guys who go there are nothing special (I disagree on the only idea of a pure "challenger rankings" : the best "challenger players" always play a mixture of challenger and main tour events then what's the point ? "pure" challenger players are lower in the rankings), Bellucci always invited because of the sponsor, and I don't see any further difficulty in level comparing with best challengers : if it really was a reward for "best challenger players" like the WTF, I could agree, but actually it's not because the whole idea of a "pure challenger ranking" is not correct imo as I just said.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

I think the upper limit is ok, 125 points. More than this and we will have top 50 players just playing challengers, and the atp 250 would lose importance. The minimum could be 60 points to really weak challengers, as Bulldog said. And 150 points to undefeated challenger finals champion would be fair.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:21 PM   #15
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Default Re: Do you think the right number of points are awarded at challengers?

Anyway, there has already been a change in 2010 which few people have noted and which I appreciated giving more points to challengers with 75 $K.

There are now many more challengers giving 125 to 100 points to the winner, and 8 to 10 points for a first round win.
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