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Old 04-21-2013, 08:36 PM   #376
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
It's not true that terrorism is supported by "an extremely few" in Islamic countries. The prestigious company Pew conducted a survey in the most liberal Islamic countries (the most conservative ones wouldn't allow them to poll there) asking people if they thought suicide bombing in defense of Islam was ever justifiable. The results are baffling:

YES NO
Lebanon 82 12
Ivory Coast 73 27
Nigeria 66 26
Jordan 65 26
Bangladesh 58 23
Mali 54 35
Senegal 47 50
Ghana 44 43
Indonesia 43 54
Uganda 40 52
Pakistan 38 38
Turkey 20 64
Had to quote this because it's worth thinking about, carefully.

Internet these days unfortunately has a lot of crap on it. Everything from false conspiracy theories to awful religious extremism. Click on the wrong links and have a vulnerable mind and soon you get influenced. If you already from the beginning had passive acceptance for the idea of killing yourself (or others) in the name of religion then yeah if you can add 1 and 1 together you see where it's going.

I have no doubt that if they ever can hear this surviving Boston Bomber it will be a story of having read all manners of bullcrap on the internet and then become more and more "angry" and then making this insane call that it's justified to do what they did.

Most likely a few dangerous minds have influenced and encouraged these young individuals and maybe even helped them plan and prepare the explosives too. So we'll see who else goes down with this. At the end of the day I don't think Allah or any other God will take kindly to people blowing up little girls and shooting innocent people to death. And hey if that God does, he/she is probably the Devil

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Old 04-21-2013, 09:10 PM   #377
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post

Somehow, it always is something different. Politics, sociology, poverty, "human nature"... I wonder how often failed suicide bombers will have to tell us they were doing it because of Allah to enter the promised blissed paradise for us to stop somehow looking for other explanations.
I don't see the relevance to the thread.

were these guys failed suicide bombers?
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:13 PM   #378
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

oh no it's turned into another religion thread
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:20 PM   #379
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Since both tribes are Christian, religion had nothing to do with the genocide. It was purely tribal.
And yet the priests and nuns thought they were doing God's work by killing people of different sects.

Dont be double standards.

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
You would do better to maybe explain to us why in Indonesia you can be arrested for being an atheist. And what kind of thinking is it that allows the government to do this to some of its citizens.
You would do better to give us evidence that an atheist in Indonesia is arrested solely for being atheist.

Otherwise all you have been doing is painting lies.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:44 PM   #380
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
I'm well aware of the atrocities committed by people of all faiths. That being said, neither Christianity nor Buddhism are responsible for the degrees of violence, terrorism, repression and persecution of minorities (including women, which isn't even a minority...) that we see in Islamic contexts.
I can just as easily say:
I'm well aware of the atrocities committed by people of all faiths. That being said, neither Islam nor Hinduism are responsible for the degrees of violence, terrorism, repression and persecution of minorities that we see in Christian contexts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
There may be few who are willing to blow themselves up for their God, yet they are exponentially more numerous than those who do it in name of the Christian God or in the name of Buddha.
They may not be willing to blow themselves up for their God, but they certainly have no qualms about blowing up people of different faiths in the name of the Christian God or in the name of Buddha.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
It's not true that terrorism is supported by "an extremely few" in Islamic countries. The prestigious company Pew conducted a survey in the most liberal Islamic countries (the most conservative ones wouldn't allow them to poll there) asking people if they thought suicide bombing in defense of Islam was ever justifiable. The results are baffling:

YES NO
Lebanon 82 12
Ivory Coast 73 27
Nigeria 66 26
Jordan 65 26
Bangladesh 58 23
Mali 54 35
Senegal 47 50
Ghana 44 43
Indonesia 43 54
Uganda 40 52
Pakistan 38 38
Turkey 20 64
I'd like to see the types of questions, the method of survey and range of respondents before I make comment.

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
You mention paedophilia. Go find results showing 82 percent of, say, Portuguese people think paedophilia is justifiable and then I'll accept your analogy as a valid one.
in Catholics, priests are regarded as Jesus' representatives on earth, so how do we make about this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Are you seriously saying that Indonesia, where people have been put in jail for being atheists and churches are forced to close because there is a "zero church" policy by the authorities, treats other religions better than the US treats Muslims?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/op...ance.html?_r=0
When it comes to news about Islam, do you really believe NY Times is objective?


Have you realized that in Indonesia many more muslims have been killed by christians in sectarian conflicts than the other way around?

Did you realize than many more mosques are forced to close in christian majority communities than the other way around, but one church closed because they dont have permit made news around the world?

Check the neutrality and objectivity of your sources before you rely on their news.
The Economist is much better.

Have you realized that per capita, there are more churches in Indonesia than there mosques?
In Indonesia, all major religions are regarded as official religions and have national official holidays.
Do they give national holidays to islamic holidays in the USA?

And have you not heard that so many mosques being proposed to built in the USA have been refused permit?
And most existing mosques have been vandalised and attacked?

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php...ist_incidents1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Show me where I talked about the actual teaching itself (although the Quran does make an explicit case for martyrdom in the context of holy war against infidels in a way other big religions don't).

I care for actual facts and actions. Back in 1000 AD, you could make a case that Christianity was as dangerous as Islam. Things have clearly changed, and ignoring that is ignoring reality.
Have you realized how many christians in the USA supported the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, teh extermination of the Palestines, because they believe in their interpretation of the bible and regarded muslims as the devils?

What's the different is that with the motives of other so called terrorists?

In fact, muslims are not responsible for the actions of a few individual muslims, while the people of USA are certainly responsible for the action if their government, since the democratically elected their government.

Mind you, my family is both christians and muslims, and I respect both faiths and the examples and facts I conveyed here is in no way to denigrate a faith or another, but simply to refute your slander about Islam and your groundless Islamophobia.
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People need to wake up. Olderer is not winning anymore slams - neither is he going to become #1.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:51 PM   #381
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
The poll question was clear: "is it ever justifiable to kill yourself in defense of Islam?". It seems to me profoundly intellectually dishonest to pretend when these people say it's justifiable to kill oneself in defense of Islam, they really mean something else.

Somehow, it always is something different. Politics, sociology, poverty, "human nature"... I wonder how often failed suicide bombers will have to tell us they were doing it because of Allah to enter the promised blissed paradise for us to stop somehow looking for other explanations.
Obviously most americans authorised the attack and invasion of Afghanistan (and Iraq to a certain degree), killing directly and indirectly hundreds of thousands to a million people in the process, just because they felt (without any court trial to prove the guilt of perpetrators) that they need to avenge.

Most americans maybe not willing to blow themselves up, but they are willing to blow other people up to avenge whatever they believed to be avenged.

For USA (and the west) the rule is always different.

before you call me terorist, No I absolutely believe act of terrorism (especially blowing up self) is absolutely wrong.
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People need to wake up. Olderer is not winning anymore slams - neither is he going to become #1.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:21 PM   #382
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

Credit where credit is due: my infraction has been reversed by the admins and the mod that gave it to me has admitted their mistake and apologised. I thank them for that.
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:52 PM   #383
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Credit where credit is due: my infraction has been reversed by the admins and the mod that gave it to me has admitted their mistake and apologised. I thank them for that.
Well done, we all do mistake but only great admit it and make the wrong right

I wish it was the same where I work but sadly they just blame the mistake in someone else even when they correct it


I'm very happy for u
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:56 PM   #384
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by atennisfan View Post
I can just as easily say:
I'm well aware of the atrocities committed by people of all faiths. That being said, neither Islam nor Hinduism are responsible for the degrees of violence, terrorism, repression and persecution of minorities that we see in Christian contexts.
You could say that, provided you detatch yourself completely from reality.

Quote:
They may not be willing to blow themselves up for their God, but they certainly have no qualms about blowing up people of different faiths in the name of the Christian God or in the name of Buddha.
Really? What Christians or Buddhists have no qualms about blowing people of different faiths in tha name of the Christian God or Buddha?

Quote:
I'd like to see the types of questions, the method of survey and range of respondents before I make comment.
Be my guest.

http://www.people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/165.pdf
http://www.people-press.org/2002/12/...nation-survey/

This is the question that was asked:

Quote:
Full question wording: Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?

Notes: Asked of Muslims only.
Quote:
in Catholics, priests are regarded as Jesus' representatives on earth, so how do we make about this?
I don't know, you tell me. Are you implying most Catholics support paedophile priests?

Quote:
When it comes to news about Islam, do you really believe NY Times is objective?
I have provided evidence supporting my thesis. The NY Times is one of the largest and most respected newspapers in the world. You are welcome to provide evidence of your own to prove your point. Or are you going to go ahead and just bash any sources I quote?

Quote:
Have you realized that in Indonesia many more muslims have been killed by christians in sectarian conflicts than the other way around?

Did you realize than many more mosques are forced to close in christian majority communities than the other way around, but one church closed because they dont have permit made news around the world?

Check the neutrality and objectivity of your sources before you rely on their news.
The Economist is much better.
Fine:

http://www.economist.com/node/21556618

Quote:
Islam in Indonesia
Tolerating intolerance

Indonesia’s president is accused of turning a blind eye to religious violence
Jun 9th 2012 | JAKARTA |From the print edition


MAY was a cruel month for Indonesians trying to do nothing more than worship their god. During an Ascension Day service on May 17th (and again on May 20th), about 100 Protestants were attacked by a Muslim mob at their church in Bekasi on the outskirts of the capital, Jakarta. The mob hurled stones, bags of urine and death threats at the congregation. The church was still only half-built when it was attacked; the pastor has been waiting more than five years for permission from the local district administration to complete it. Since May 2nd local government officials in the ultra-conservative Muslim province of Aceh, in northern Sumatra, have closed at least 16 Christian churches, citing lack of permits.

Such intimidation, and the ongoing rows over permits, are now so commonplace that they are barely reported. On May 26th, however, the issue of religious intolerance in this Muslim-majority nation made international headlines when Islamic hardliners forced the cancellation of a sold-out concert by Lady Gaga, an American pop star. The Islamic Defenders Front (known by its initials in Indonesian, FPI) had threatened to provoke “chaos” if she entered the country. Her promoters said that they could not guarantee her, or her fans', safety. They were probably right.

Critics argue that these are only the latest incidents in a remorseless rise of religious intolerance, and often violence. Human Rights Watch, a New York-based lobby group, reports that incidents of sectarian violence became “more deadly and more frequent” last year. Islamic hardliners attacked not only Christian churches but also Muslim sects, such as the Ahmadiyah, that they believe to be heretical. The most shocking incident occurred in February last year when a mob of 1,500, stoked up by local FPI leaders, attacked the house of a local Ahmadiyah leader in west Java, killing three people.

The government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has been accused of doing too little to stop such attacks, or to express enough concern about violent Islamic groups. His critics say that he panders to Muslim fundamentalism for political gain, despite his obligations in the constitution to protect freedom of worship. Mr Yudhoyono has dished out cabinet posts in his broad coalition to the leaders of the country's main Islamic parties.

Certainly, cabinet ministers from the Islamic parties have been less than helpful in promoting Indonesia as the moderate, pluralistic country it claims to be. The religious-affairs minister, Suryadharma Ali, has blamed the Ahmadiyah itself for inviting deadly attacks, saying it had strayed from mainstream Islam. In March he suggested banning women from wearing skirts that were above the knee, calling them “pornographic”. The information minister, Tifatul Sembiring, has made offensive comments about homosexuals.

The president has uttered a few vague public statements about non-violence and respecting other people's rights, but he has largely left the problem to local governments. This has appeared only to embolden extremist groups, which now feel that they can act with impunity. Sometimes the police are in cahoots with the hardliners. The situation continues to worsen.
Quote:
Have you realized that per capita, there are more churches in Indonesia than there mosques?
In Indonesia, all major religions are regarded as official religions and have national official holidays.
Do they give national holidays to islamic holidays in the USA?

And have you not heard that so many mosques being proposed to built in the USA have been refused permit?
And most existing mosques have been vandalised and attacked?

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php...ist_incidents1
Really? Atheism as well? Or might it be that atheists are not only forced to adhere to a religion, but they are persecuted and prosecuted? And before you try to discredit my sources again, I'll use the one you approved yourself:

http://www.economist.com/news/intern...are-no-god-not

You seem keen on talking on a per capita basis. Now tell me what percentage of mosques have been denied permits and vandalised in the US compared to the same thing happening with churches in Indonesia.

Quote:
Have you realized how many christians in the USA supported the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, teh extermination of the Palestines, because they believe in their interpretation of the bible and regarded muslims as the devils?

What's the different is that with the motives of other so called terrorists?
If you really believe Americans supported the Iraq war because they regarded muslims as the devil, there's not much I can do for you...

Quote:
In fact, muslims are not responsible for the actions of a few individual muslims, while the people of USA are certainly responsible for the action if their government, since the democratically elected their government.
Yes, exactly... electors are responsible for any actions undertaken by any elected official...
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).

Last edited by Har-Tru : 04-22-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:14 PM   #385
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
It's not true that terrorism is supported by "an extremely few" in Islamic countries. The prestigious company Pew conducted a survey in the most liberal Islamic countries (the most conservative ones wouldn't allow them to poll there) asking people if they thought suicide bombing in defense of Islam was ever justifiable. The results are baffling:

YES NO
Lebanon 82 12
Ivory Coast 73 27
Nigeria 66 26
Jordan 65 26
Bangladesh 58 23
Mali 54 35
Senegal 47 50
Ghana 44 43
Indonesia 43 54
Uganda 40 52
Pakistan 38 38
Turkey 20 64
Don't you have anything better than a 11+ year old study? The same "prestigious company Pew" has consistently updated their figures based on more recent and accurate surveys:



Then again, I'm sure none of it will change your prejudices. I've long before told you exactly what you are: a racist suffering from Islamophobia. You're in the same level as Gert Wilders as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:44 PM   #386
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
Don't you have anything better than a 11+ year old study? The same "prestigious company Pew" has consistently updated their figures based on more recent and accurate surveys:



Then again, I'm sure none of it will change your prejudices. I've long before told you exactly what you are: a racist suffering from Islamophobia. You're in the same level as Gert Wilders as far as I'm concerned.
Oh, I'll take the lowest results (of any year!). You will notice, though, that the results I posted were the answer to the question "is suicide bombing in defense of Islam ever justified?". This includes the results of the option "often/sometimes justified" showed in the chart you posted, but also the responses of those who said it is "rarely justified", which make up a sizeable percentage of answers. Pew, somewhat oddly, group these together with those who say suicide bombing is "never justified" in the overall results.

You keep calling me a racist (now that is a personal attack!), somehow implying Islam is a race. These two Boston terrorists were Caucasian (literally: they hail from the Caucasus). I condemn white Islamists as harshly as I condemn Arab Islamists. In fact, at times even more, since often they haven't been brought up in the kind of isolated conservative environment many Arab Islamists were brought up in.
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:56 PM   #387
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

I don't understand why abraxas and others are defending Islamic terror bombers.
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In fact, he may be the one poster here who fails more than you do. Maybe we should all keep that in mind: there is bigger fail than Word Life/Danger Ehren...and its name is Glenn
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about the Federer Will Fall thread:
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Best damn thread I've ever read on MTF. You should be awarded for being a visionary. Some of us out here noticed it and appreciated it.
Federer will fall
Murray will never win a slam
Federer will never beat Nadal again in a slam
Golubev will rise
Go Ouahab
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:58 PM   #388
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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I don't understand why abraxas and others are defending Islamic terror bombers.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:00 PM   #389
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Oh, I'll take the lowest results (of any year!).
Please. Take the more recent results, which are available for you to see. Don't just cherrypick the oldest year of polling, which -conveniently for your agenda- shows the highest level of support for suicide bombing and thus allows you to discredit Muslims once again. That's not only dishonest, it also exposes once again the type of ideas you hold.

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You keep calling me a racist (now that is a personal attack!), somehow implying Islam is a race.
No, I don't imply that at all. I simply call things from as I see them. You have long taken far right positions regarding topics like immigration and Islam in Europe positions. It's pretty clear what your motivations are.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:19 PM   #390
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Default Re: 2 explosions at Boston Marathon, UPDATE: at least 3 dead, 144 injured

Canada arrested two men this morning who were allegedly plotting to blow up a passenger train.

An police official has stated that the men have been watched for over a year and received directions from Al Qaeda elements in Iran.

The men are not Canadians.
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Last edited by buddyholly : 04-22-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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