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Old 04-10-2013, 11:12 AM   #121
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by mseles1 View Post

The video footage of Thatcher moving the German flag & replacing it with the Union Jack in front of Kohl - sums up Britain & Europe still. Commonwealth conferences, 48-1 three times, I can't fault her conviction.
She 'made' spitting image.

She also knew the mood of the British people re:the EU.
There can't be a single person in the UK who actually believes that the UK would vote stay in the EU if a referendum was given.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:39 PM   #122
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
May she rest in peace, just like I would say to Hugo Chavez. I really cant tell if these were bad or good people, but following an ideology that I personally oppose because its your hearths conviction that you are right, I really dont think that makes someone evil.
me neither. in fact, i don't think i know any person i'd think them to be evil.

Thatcher just had ideas that are very different to the ones I have. No doubt she did what she thought was best for her nation. Then again, most of the world leaders who do great harm have acted with such conviction in their minds.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:40 PM   #123
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

also, in spite of thatcher, even to this day: GERMANY > UK

brits just need to cope with reality, imo
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:43 PM   #124
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
also, in spite of thatcher, even to this day: GERMANY > UK

brits just need to cope with reality, imo
Just in Economics
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:55 PM   #125
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
She also knew the mood of the British people re:the EU.
There can't be a single person in the UK who actually believes that the UK would vote stay in the EU if a referendum was given.
Only considering about 80% of the country haven't even researched all the factors, intangibles and the pros and cons of EU membership.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:09 PM   #126
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Just in Economics
in this world, wealth = power
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:10 PM   #127
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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She also knew the mood of the British people re:the EU.
Ironic really that she signed the single European Act. BBC - 'In later years she bitterly protested that she was misled as to its meaning.' Nice try love.

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Only considering about 80% of the country haven't even researched all the factors, intangibles and the pros and cons of EU membership.
True. Though 80% might be kind.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:55 PM   #128
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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I remember when I was working in Whitehall as a junior in the Civil Service - she was coming to visit our offices. We were told we weren't to speak to her unless she spoke to us. She walked past me and I asked her for her autograph which she gave me.

My manager at the time had a go at me afterwards over that.
if she had suspected that you were gay, she might not have. she brought in section 28/clause 2A and through her party and her contacts in the media portrayed the labour party as perverted because they spoke up for gay rights.

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I come from an area she hated, treated with contempt and destroyed so don't be coming on here and patronising me when you're on the outside looking in.

The Poll Tax.
The privatisation.
The destruction of the unions.
The miners.
The sale of North Sea oil.
The cover-up of Hillsborough.
The cover-up of Pat Finucane.
Orgreave.
Ravenscraig.
Mandela a 'terrorist'
Support for Pinochet

Fine list of achievements right there. The people of Merseyside will sleep easy tonight.
exactly. just some of that vile woman's vile actions.

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Saddest thing about it is people celebrating her death. She wasn't Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.

Somebody's mother has died today. Worth remembering.
somebody's mother? ah yes, the guy who financed a brutal (but failed) coup and yeah, i'm not going to rush out and celebrate her death, and yeah, she was no hitler, but she was still a murderer in her own right and brought about the falklands war purely to whip up jingoism and nationalism to retain power prior to an election that she was otherwise certain to lose.

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
She wasn't a hypocrite, that's something very rare in a political leader. That's irrespective of what the fanboys or people who are very happy that she has passed on.
that much is true.

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With the possible exception of Churchill I doubt that any PM ever has or ever will.
churchill is vastly overrated as a prime minister. whilst definitely a great wartime leader, it is often forgotten that he lost the 1945 election, which is pretty crazy considering how popular he himself was as a result of the war.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:24 AM   #129
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

regarding the Falklands war people forget what triggered all-out war was the sinking of the Belgrano which was actually outside the exclusion zone. War crimes anyone?

too right she's a fucking murderer as well- her boot boys have 96 people's blood on their hands. Respect her? fuck off
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:38 AM   #130
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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if she had suspected that you were gay, she might not have. she brought in section 28/clause 2A and through her party and her contacts in the media portrayed the labour party as perverted because they spoke up for gay rights.
Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.

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she was still a murderer in her own right and brought about the falklands war purely to whip up jingoism and nationalism to retain power prior to an election that she was otherwise certain to lose.
Not a student of history I see. Although you're Scottish so you were probably fed this tripe by your parents, not your fault.

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
regarding the Falklands war people forget what triggered all-out war was the sinking of the Belgrano which was actually outside the exclusion zone. War crimes anyone?

too right she's a fucking murderer as well- her boot boys have 96 people's blood on their hands. Respect her? fuck off
You realise that even the Argentine Navy regards it as a legitimate act of war?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ask-Force.html

Quote:
‘It was absolutely not a war crime,’ said the Belgrano’s captain, Hector Bonzo, in an interview two years before his death in 2009.

‘It was an act of war, lamentably legal.’

Meanwhile, the Argentine admiral Enrique Molina Pico later admitted the location of the Belgrano outside the Exclusion Zone ‘did not mean it was withdrawn from the war’.

‘The integrated naval force had been deployed to carry out an attack on the British fleet in a co-ordinated operation with other naval groups,’ he wrote.

‘The heading away from the enemy fleet was only momentary, as the commander saw fit to wait for a more convenient time (to attack).

'The Belgrano and the other ships were a threat and a danger to the British.’
If you're going to be so hateful towards someone, you could at least get your facts straight. Otherwise anyone might think your rants are fuelled by little more than ignorant bile.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:49 AM   #131
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.
Forced upon her what a load of drivel. She didn't have to go through with it. So much for her 'convictions' and 'iron lady' qualities everyone praises if a few backbench Tories twisted her head

As for politically vulnerable, she'd won the last election a year prior and the Poll Tax, her final death blow, had yet to be introduced. Wouldn't say she was cornered at all. Trying to defend a homophobic legislation is pretty low tbh.

Her proteges continued to oppose the repeal of Section 28 until it was finally abolished in 2000.

As for the Belgrano you're forgetting it was heading west at the time, outside the zone and Peru had a peace proposal on the table. Recklessly sinking it caused needless British and Argentine deaths due to it escalating conflict. Yes there was tensions and there was preparation for battle, but doing that put a stop to any peaceful resolution.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:58 AM   #132
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I thought Blair's first term (1997-01) was excellent but Iraq was the moment the honeymoon turned into a tragedy. The guy nowadays cracks me up, everything he comes out with is comedy gold.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:21 AM   #133
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Forced upon her what a load of drivel. She didn't have to go through with it. So much for her 'convictions' and 'iron lady' qualities everyone praises if a few backbench Tories twisted her head

As for politically vulnerable, she'd won the last election a year prior and the Poll Tax, her final death blow, had yet to be introduced. Wouldn't say she was cornered at all. Trying to defend a homophobic legislation is pretty low tbh.

Her proteges continued to oppose the repeal of Section 28 until it was finally abolished in 2000.
Look at her record on homosexuality prior to becoming leader. It was out of character. All politicians are subject to the will of their party to some extent. She threw a bone to the hardliners led by Jill Knight, one that had more symbolic than practical effect anyway.

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
As for the Belgrano you're forgetting it was heading west at the time, outside the zone and Peru had a peace proposal on the table. Recklessly sinking it caused needless British and Argentine deaths due to it escalating conflict. Yes there was tensions and there was preparation for battle, but doing that put a stop to any peaceful resolution.
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Originally Posted by Verd View Post
Exactly, the Belgrano was retreating and Thatcher made an outrageous error of judgment.
Did either of you actually read the article I linked to?

The Belgrano was not retreating. It had temporarily altered its heading to reposition for an incursion into the exclusion zone, where it was to rendezvous with other Argentine ships. A fact that the British were aware of due to intercepted signals.

The Argentines had been warned the previous week that being outside the exclusion zone did not render ships automatically safe, and that if ships outside that area were perceived as a threat they would be attacked. A squadron of Argentinian ships heading into the exclusion zone is about as threatening as it gets before you are actually under attack.

I cannot believe you guys are still peddling the lie that it was a war crime when even the Argentine Admiralty and the captain of the ship that was sunk agree that it was a perfectly legitimate act of war.

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Originally Posted by Verd View Post
As a US native I don't for one second think that I am entitled to hold the same outrage as the people of Chile, South Africa, Argentina, Scotland, the North, et cetera, but some of the people baying for respect are ridiculous when they can't take a second to understand the horrific legacy of this woman that is motivating otherwise compassionate people to actually want to celebrate an old lady's death. Poverty rates doubled, tripled over her tenure in office, and she was not a passive participant in that fall, she had a firm hand on that doomed rudder.

Remembering that this woman was a murderer and an enabler of murderers, apartheid, homelessness, and poverty is only acknowledging the truth. Thatcherism is still dominant in the UK and the mainstream left has been successfully marginalized. You only have to look to Blair's time in office and Clegg's lapdogging to see that. While I agree with many of my fellow leftists that Thatcher's death should primarily serve as a reminder to continue organizing against her style of destructive governance, forgive me for not giving a crap that some of my sisters and brothers in the UK, Argentina, Chile, etc. who have seen and been a part of the destructive legacy of this woman will actually pop a champagne cork in Trafalgar Square (or wherever they are) and let off some steam at her passing.
Mealy-mouthed dissembling. Many people suffered, but that is what happens in hard times when difficult decisions must be made.

The woman took a Britain on the verge of utter economic destruction after the Winter of Discontent, and put it back on top of the world within a decade. History will remember her as Britain's greatest peacetime Prime Minister.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:36 AM   #134
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

No, you remember her as the greatest PM. A lot of people, including me, consider it to be Clement Attlee.

Also the amount of people below the poverty line is a shocking stat and 'difficult decisions' are no justification, it's almost like she had only one way of handling business and there were no other methods or ways of softening the blows.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:48 AM   #135
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Hagiography =/= history. The idea that any leader should be praised for helping the economy of the country at the expense of the people in it is ridiculous.
Without an economy, you can't help anyone. Her reforms may have resulted in hardship, but they laid the foundation so that people such as yourselves have the luxury of being idealistic and aspirational.

Britain has Thatcher to thank that it isn't Greece right now - a country utterly destroyed and devoid of all hope.

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No, you remember her as the greatest PM. A lot of people, including me, consider it to be Clement Attlee.
Attlee would have been as useless as Wilson at dealing with the problems Thatcher was forced to confront.

Attlee has the luxury of being a Prime Minister who was required to do things that were popular. Thatcher was required to do things that were unpopular. Nonetheless she did them, and did them exceedingly well. Millions of Britons who have ultimately benefited from it continue to curse her, ignorant of how lucky they are.

She's basically Batman.
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