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Old 04-10-2013, 11:12 AM   #121
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by mseles1 View Post

The video footage of Thatcher moving the German flag & replacing it with the Union Jack in front of Kohl - sums up Britain & Europe still. Commonwealth conferences, 48-1 three times, I can't fault her conviction.
She 'made' spitting image.

She also knew the mood of the British people re:the EU.
There can't be a single person in the UK who actually believes that the UK would vote stay in the EU if a referendum was given.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:39 PM   #122
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
May she rest in peace, just like I would say to Hugo Chavez. I really cant tell if these were bad or good people, but following an ideology that I personally oppose because its your hearths conviction that you are right, I really dont think that makes someone evil.
me neither. in fact, i don't think i know any person i'd think them to be evil.

Thatcher just had ideas that are very different to the ones I have. No doubt she did what she thought was best for her nation. Then again, most of the world leaders who do great harm have acted with such conviction in their minds.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:40 PM   #123
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

also, in spite of thatcher, even to this day: GERMANY > UK

brits just need to cope with reality, imo
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:43 PM   #124
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
also, in spite of thatcher, even to this day: GERMANY > UK

brits just need to cope with reality, imo
Just in Economics
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:55 PM   #125
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
She also knew the mood of the British people re:the EU.
There can't be a single person in the UK who actually believes that the UK would vote stay in the EU if a referendum was given.
Only considering about 80% of the country haven't even researched all the factors, intangibles and the pros and cons of EU membership.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:09 PM   #126
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Just in Economics
in this world, wealth = power
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:10 PM   #127
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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She also knew the mood of the British people re:the EU.
Ironic really that she signed the single European Act. BBC - 'In later years she bitterly protested that she was misled as to its meaning.' Nice try love.

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Only considering about 80% of the country haven't even researched all the factors, intangibles and the pros and cons of EU membership.
True. Though 80% might be kind.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:55 PM   #128
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
I remember when I was working in Whitehall as a junior in the Civil Service - she was coming to visit our offices. We were told we weren't to speak to her unless she spoke to us. She walked past me and I asked her for her autograph which she gave me.

My manager at the time had a go at me afterwards over that.
if she had suspected that you were gay, she might not have. she brought in section 28/clause 2A and through her party and her contacts in the media portrayed the labour party as perverted because they spoke up for gay rights.

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I come from an area she hated, treated with contempt and destroyed so don't be coming on here and patronising me when you're on the outside looking in.

The Poll Tax.
The privatisation.
The destruction of the unions.
The miners.
The sale of North Sea oil.
The cover-up of Hillsborough.
The cover-up of Pat Finucane.
Orgreave.
Ravenscraig.
Mandela a 'terrorist'
Support for Pinochet

Fine list of achievements right there. The people of Merseyside will sleep easy tonight.
exactly. just some of that vile woman's vile actions.

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Saddest thing about it is people celebrating her death. She wasn't Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.

Somebody's mother has died today. Worth remembering.
somebody's mother? ah yes, the guy who financed a brutal (but failed) coup and yeah, i'm not going to rush out and celebrate her death, and yeah, she was no hitler, but she was still a murderer in her own right and brought about the falklands war purely to whip up jingoism and nationalism to retain power prior to an election that she was otherwise certain to lose.

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She wasn't a hypocrite, that's something very rare in a political leader. That's irrespective of what the fanboys or people who are very happy that she has passed on.
that much is true.

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With the possible exception of Churchill I doubt that any PM ever has or ever will.
churchill is vastly overrated as a prime minister. whilst definitely a great wartime leader, it is often forgotten that he lost the 1945 election, which is pretty crazy considering how popular he himself was as a result of the war.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:07 AM   #129
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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don't know that much about politics, what bad things she did to deserve such hatred even when she is dead now?
This is one just one example:

"She identified her big enemies, aside from the IRA, as football fans and trade unions, and she set out to destroy them. She waged war on the poor, the working class in general, she wanted to desperately keep hold of every bit of empire left, she's responsible for war crimes, for making it so that folk going to school couldn't even be told that LGBTQ people existed, her government are the ones who left our trade union laws in a state where they strangle any kind of effective action.

"She's responsible for trashing access to skilled jobs not just in my country but particularly in my city, for taking milk out of weans' mouths, for the fact that we have like NO social housing left at all because of right to buy, and has contributed massively to the fact that if you're born in Glasgow you can pretty much expect to have a relatively short life - like, before you comment saying 'NO CLASS' why don't you stop talking and look up life expectancy in Glasgow? Read up on 'The Glasgow Effect' and be horrified. Did you know that some of those people you're lecturing live in areas where men aren't expected to make it to SIXTY? She made it to 87 and got to go quickly from a stroke while she was staying at the Ritz - that's about fifteen years more than anybody, ANYBODY, in my family has ever managed.

"Folk can ask me to respect her humanity when I'm not having to have a death party in my city square just to get two seconds of news time to talk about how all this shit is still going on and because of my class, my disability, my voice, I'm still being dehumanised."
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:12 AM   #130
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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People who blame Thatcher for everything seem to block out the fact that she was elected three times. A fairly sure indication that she was carrying out the will of the people. So why not just heap your scorn on the electorate? She was serving the nation.
Thatcher's approval ratings were consistently lower than that of the Conservative Party itself and there was a large block of Conservative voters who held their noses and voted for the party, not for her.

And as alluded to above, the left vote was split. Certainly attempts by shit leaders like Kinnock to move Labour to the right didn't help to maintain any unity.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:24 AM   #131
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

regarding the Falklands war people forget what triggered all-out war was the sinking of the Belgrano which was actually outside the exclusion zone. War crimes anyone?

too right she's a fucking murderer as well- her boot boys have 96 people's blood on their hands. Respect her? fuck off
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:32 AM   #132
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Some of the strongest pro-Capitalist views come out of people who were forced to live under Communism until the revolutions across Europe in the late 1980s that ultimately led to the fall of the USSR.

That's understandable - I don't think we who didn't go through that can quite understand how despicable Communism was as lived by the ordinary person, how restrictive, how crushing, how grim. It's no wonder Capitalism is seen as a great thing, embodying freedom, choice, self-reliance and less Government.

What's missing from that is the fact that Capitalism no more has all the answers for how society should live and organise itself than Communism did. It might be a better system, but it still has great flaws and we've seen since 2007/8 in close-up just how bad some of those flaws are.
It also deserves to be mentioned that big-C "Communism" as implemented in the 20th-century was only one form of communism and a strain of communism that most "far" leftists (including myself) would find abhorrent. I personally consider anarchist communism, libertarian socialism, anarchosyndicalism, and collectivist anarchism to be more accurate representations of what communism truly is. The C-ommunism of the 20th century isn't communism.

In the same vein, big-C "Capitalism" as has been implemented by rich nations isn't really truly capitalism either. It's thanks to massive state funding by the US govt. and not "capitalism" or "Free Enterprise" that billions in taxpayer dollars go to Big Agriculture, the war industries, or Big Oil. If a true free enterprise system of government actually existed in C-apitalist nations like the US, the banking systems would have been allowed to collapse a few years ago. Instead, the state insured that the losses were disproportionately socialized to the working and middle-classes, even though for decades the gains were privatized and funneled to a very few people in the highest class.

Just like big-C Communism, big-C Capitalism isn't an accurate depiction of what capitalism actually is. The ideals of both have been implemented in ways that prop up hierarchical, oppressive structures of government and end up harming large classes of people.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:38 AM   #133
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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if she had suspected that you were gay, she might not have. she brought in section 28/clause 2A and through her party and her contacts in the media portrayed the labour party as perverted because they spoke up for gay rights.
Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.

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she was still a murderer in her own right and brought about the falklands war purely to whip up jingoism and nationalism to retain power prior to an election that she was otherwise certain to lose.
Not a student of history I see. Although you're Scottish so you were probably fed this tripe by your parents, not your fault.

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
regarding the Falklands war people forget what triggered all-out war was the sinking of the Belgrano which was actually outside the exclusion zone. War crimes anyone?

too right she's a fucking murderer as well- her boot boys have 96 people's blood on their hands. Respect her? fuck off
You realise that even the Argentine Navy regards it as a legitimate act of war?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ask-Force.html

Quote:
‘It was absolutely not a war crime,’ said the Belgrano’s captain, Hector Bonzo, in an interview two years before his death in 2009.

‘It was an act of war, lamentably legal.’

Meanwhile, the Argentine admiral Enrique Molina Pico later admitted the location of the Belgrano outside the Exclusion Zone ‘did not mean it was withdrawn from the war’.

‘The integrated naval force had been deployed to carry out an attack on the British fleet in a co-ordinated operation with other naval groups,’ he wrote.

‘The heading away from the enemy fleet was only momentary, as the commander saw fit to wait for a more convenient time (to attack).

'The Belgrano and the other ships were a threat and a danger to the British.’
If you're going to be so hateful towards someone, you could at least get your facts straight. Otherwise anyone might think your rants are fuelled by little more than ignorant bile.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:49 AM   #134
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.
Forced upon her what a load of drivel. She didn't have to go through with it. So much for her 'convictions' and 'iron lady' qualities everyone praises if a few backbench Tories twisted her head

As for politically vulnerable, she'd won the last election a year prior and the Poll Tax, her final death blow, had yet to be introduced. Wouldn't say she was cornered at all. Trying to defend a homophobic legislation is pretty low tbh.

Her proteges continued to oppose the repeal of Section 28 until it was finally abolished in 2000.

As for the Belgrano you're forgetting it was heading west at the time, outside the zone and Peru had a peace proposal on the table. Recklessly sinking it caused needless British and Argentine deaths due to it escalating conflict. Yes there was tensions and there was preparation for battle, but doing that put a stop to any peaceful resolution.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:51 AM   #135
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
regarding the Falklands war people forget what triggered all-out war was the sinking of the Belgrano which was actually outside the exclusion zone. War crimes anyone?

too right she's a fucking murderer as well- her boot boys have 96 people's blood on their hands. Respect her? fuck off
Exactly, the Belgrano was retreating and Thatcher made an outrageous error of judgment.

As a US native I don't for one second think that I am entitled to hold the same outrage as the people of Chile, South Africa, Argentina, Scotland, the North, et cetera, but some of the people baying for respect are ridiculous when they can't take a second to understand the horrific legacy of this woman that is motivating otherwise compassionate people to actually want to celebrate an old lady's death. Poverty rates doubled, tripled over her tenure in office, and she was not a passive participant in that fall, she had a firm hand on that doomed rudder.

Remembering that this woman was a murderer and an enabler of murderers, apartheid, homelessness, and poverty is only acknowledging the truth. Thatcherism is still dominant in the UK and the mainstream left has been successfully marginalized. You only have to look to Blair's time in office and Clegg's lapdogging to see that. While I agree with many of my fellow leftists that Thatcher's death should primarily serve as a reminder to continue organizing against her style of destructive governance, forgive me for not giving a crap that some of my sisters and brothers in the UK, Argentina, Chile, etc. who have seen and been a part of the destructive legacy of this woman will actually pop a champagne cork in Trafalgar Square (or wherever they are) and let off some steam at her passing.
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