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Old 04-13-2013, 12:32 PM   #226
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
Whilst I wouldn't word it the way you have - celebrating the death of a democratically elected leader is pretty despicable.
you do realise that hitler was democratically elected, right?
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:45 PM   #227
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
He introduced the minimum wage, unemployment was at its lowest in around 30 years, repealed Section 28 amongst other things. There will be some that say he was fortunate to enter power during an economic boom- one that Merseyside benefitted greatly from him. I never liked him personally but I won't slate his first few years in charge.
Okay for the minimum wage (automatically indexed?). I guess the 'some' are right though. The French say the same about Jospin at the same period.

Blair signed up the Amsterdam Treaty. He advocated for deregulation and electricity liberalization at the Barcelona Summit 2002. With regards to that he did nothing to repair the damage caused by Thatcher.

And don't forget his aggressive attitude towards Iraq started in 1998 (Desert Fox Operation). Next stop was Kosovo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mseles1 View Post
Maastricht Treaty - Signed the treaty after opting out of the social chapter & EMU - what a partner we were/are! European interference in the workplace, the UK was going to stumble with this one, particularly a tory government. Eight years later the UK (labour) signed up to the social chapter if I remember correctly.
Lol and opting out EMU was a bad thing, you think? Come to the continent and see the damage done, dude ! It's the best thing John "Carlisle" Major did.

Social chapter? There's nothing social in the Maastricht Treaty. I'll just to remind you of art. 63 of the TFEU:
Code:
CHAPTER 4
CAPITAL AND PAYMENTS
Article 63
(ex Article 56 TEC)
1. Within the framework of the provisions set out in this Chapter, all restrictions on the
movement of capital between Member States and between Member States and third countries shall be
prohibited.
2. Within the framework of the provisions set out in this Chapter, all restrictions on payments
between Member States and between Member States and third countries shall be prohibited
There can be nothing social after this.
No social agreement without protectionism, a strong state and economic patriotism. A social state can only be national.

By the way, keeping budget sovereignty is one of the few points in Thatcher's favour (I want my money back !!), just like the Malvinas War (I've changed my mind about this) and keeping QE2 afloat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdeyC
Whilst I wouldn't word it the way you have - celebrating the death of a democratically elected leader is pretty despicable.
I don't believe in democracy².

And Gaddafi's death (I mean barbarious assassination) was celebrated worldwide, despite all the good thing that he's done ...
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:57 PM   #228
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
you do realise that hitler was democratically elected, right?
Are you seriously comparing Thatcher to Hitler?

Margaret Thatcher was a great leader. She was not afraid to make some necessary changes. Celebrating the death of an old woman, especially one who did no evil, is pointless and just flat out stupid.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:16 PM   #229
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Are you seriously comparing Thatcher to Hitler?
Obviously not. He just pointed out the absurdity of AdeyC's statement.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:23 PM   #230
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Thatcher's acts were much like those of animals dealing up with offspring - in order to survive one cub they starve to death the other one. And while that in nature could indeed be described as "survival of the fittest", the same concept should not be tolerated in the human society.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:54 PM   #231
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
Lol and opting out EMU was a bad thing, you think? Come to the continent and see the damage done, dude ! It's the best thing John "Carlisle" Major did.

Social chapter? There's nothing social in the Maastricht Treaty. I'll just to remind you of art. 63 of the TFEU:
[code]CHAPTER 4...
My comment wasn't an opinion on whether EMU was a positive or negative thing, I was making a point that even when Britain signs major European treaties we inevitably opt out somewhere along the way or end up on a team of one.

I'm pretty sure the social chapter became a protocol in Maastricht, (11 of 12 members agreeing to it, UK - non!) & labour cancelled the opt out in 1997, thus in Amsterdam it was back in the text of the treaty/applying to the UK for the first time. The days of the Maastricht rebels & labour & the LDs in a major tiss over the social provisions and the rebels the treaty itself. Didn't Major come close to losing the house's confidence?
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:20 PM   #232
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
Obviously not. He just pointed out the absurdity of AdeyC's statement.
What’s absurd about that? – if all the people of Britain thought the same as Chris, they had opportunities to vote her out if they wanted to, the fact is they didn't.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:19 PM   #233
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Are you seriously comparing Thatcher to Hitler?

Margaret Thatcher was a great leader. She was not afraid to make some necessary changes. Celebrating the death of an old woman, especially one who did no evil, is pointless and just flat out stupid.
no, i'm not. Boreas pretty much summed up why i said what i did. whether a leader is democratically elected or takes power by force isn't necessarily a reflection on how good that leader is and how ethical they are when in office. even the most ardent anti-communist would say that hitler did more "evil" that castro, for example, but whilst castro seized power, hitler won elections. let's not forget that allende won democratic elections in chile, but thatcher preferred the brutal dictatorship of pinochet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
Obviously not. He just pointed out the absurdity of AdeyC's statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
What’s absurd about that? – if all the people of Britain thought the same as Chris, they had opportunities to vote her out if they wanted to, the fact is they didn't.
like i said to andreas, my point isn't that she wasn't elected fairly (in so far as the british electoral system allows for fair voting), because she was. anyone who believes in the british democratic system MUST admit that. my point was just that celebrating the death of a democratically-elected leader isn't necessarily better or worse than celebrating that of someone who takes power by means of a coup or whatever. hitler is an extreme example, but he was someone who was voted in democratically, yet i'd imagine you wouldn't criticise people celebrating his death.


and for the record, i haven't celebrated her death at any point. andreas is right that she was a harmless old woman, and whilst i disagree about whether she'd done anything evil in her life, her death doesn't benefit anyone. but that doesn't mean that i'm going to go nuts criticising people who blame thatcher for several things (sometimes justly and sometimes perhaps unfairly). also, i'd say that the "ding dong the witch is dead" stuff is more than celebrating her death. it is also a reaction to the media and the way death ensures that people will be lionised. sure, there is some balance, but in general she is being written about as a great leader, etc. if you believe she was, then that's fine, you are entitled to. but if not, then naturally the media is going to piss you off and ding dong is a way of protesting which certainly isn't so crude as partying with bottles of champagne in public squares, etc.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:44 PM   #234
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
Are you aware that it's not just me who will not watch it out of disgust?

While I agree the BBC cannot please everyone, the fact that so many - that is people that fund the BBC - are against Thatcher as a person and her funeral as an event, should be taken into account when decisions to broadcast such events are made.
Are you aware she was elected three times? And you still think that not showing the funeral on TV would be fulfilling the will of the people who fund the BBC? Do you think that the people who elected her will not watch her funeral out of disgust? What percentage of the population should express disgust in order to have a broadcast cancelled? How would the BBC know enough people would be disgusted?
As I said at the beginning - I wonder what goes on in your head. All I am getting is that you want the BBC to conform to your opinions and ignore the majority.
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:19 PM   #235
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Are you aware she was elected three times? And you still think that not showing the funeral on TV would be fulfilling the will of the people who fund the BBC? Do you think that the people who elected her will not watch her funeral out of disgust? What percentage of the population should express disgust in order to have a broadcast cancelled? How would the BBC know enough people would be disgusted?
As I said at the beginning - I wonder what goes on in your head. All I am getting is that you want the BBC to conform to your opinions and ignore the majority.
True, but the BBC broadcasting this event is an act of condonation of a state funeral. That in my mind is unacceptable.
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:36 PM   #236
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
no, i'm not. Boreas pretty much summed up why i said what i did. whether a leader is democratically elected or takes power by force isn't necessarily a reflection on how good that leader is and how ethical they are when in office. even the most ardent anti-communist would say that hitler did more "evil" that castro, for example, but whilst castro seized power, hitler won elections. let's not forget that allende won democratic elections in chile, but thatcher preferred the brutal dictatorship of pinochet.



tc.
Let us please not put forth the idea that Hitler was ever the elected leader of Germany. He seized power. I know you didn't say otherwise, but your words seem to imply it.

For me celebrating the death of any one is non-productive and a little juvenile, I didn't like the celebrations of Osama bin Laden's death.

It's just my opinion that Margret Thatcher's death is meaningless except for the fact that death comes to us all no matter how celebrated or fortunate our lives, If people didn't like thatcher's policies, the only real revenge is to strive in the political arena to make things different,

As for her funerals I suppose it's a news worthy event. I'm sort of opposed to these televised things, but it can't be avoided, As for her being lionized at her death, that will happen no matter what, it's the way of the world, It's a matter of weeks, it will pass, have some perspective about it,
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:43 PM   #237
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
True, but the BBC broadcasting this event is an act of condonation of a state funeral. That in my mind is unacceptable.
Yes, but that is in your mind. What about the minds of the people who want to watch it? And I would bet a lot of money that of the people who care one way or the other, the "ayes" have it.
Hardly a good reason for the BBC to not broadcast the funeral.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:13 PM   #238
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Let us please not put forth the idea that Hitler was ever the elected leader of Germany. He seized power. I know you didn't say otherwise, but your words seem to imply it.

For me celebrating the death of any one is non-productive and a little juvenile, I didn't like the celebrations of Osama bin Laden's death.

It's just my opinion that Margret Thatcher's death is meaningless except for the fact that death comes to us all no matter how celebrated or fortunate our lives, If people didn't like thatcher's policies, the only real revenge is to strive in the political arena to make things different,

As for her funerals I suppose it's a news worthy event. I'm sort of opposed to these televised things, but it can't be avoided, As for her being lionized at her death, that will happen no matter what, it's the way of the world, It's a matter of weeks, it will pass, have some perspective about it,
sure, but it is also ok to criticise her in death, and much like the extreme praise, that will also last for a matter of weeks.

and yes, of course hitler's rise to power wasn't as simple as winning elections, i just think that it is valid to point out that people who are democratically elected can be pretty vile and people who aren't can be both popular and relatively benign.
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:30 PM   #239
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Thatcher on feminism: "I hate feminism. It is a poison."
Thatcher on Mandela: "He is a terrorist."
Thatcher on Pinochet: "Welcome."
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:20 AM   #240
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Verd View Post
@ people thinking Thatcher's electoral victories mean her crappy policies were accepted and legitimized by a solid majority of the people. During her party's three general election victories the Tories only got between 42% - 44% of the general vote, well under a simple majority, and Thatcher's personal approval ratings were significantly lower than that of the Conservative party itself, which means that there were plenty of Tories who didn't like her at all but held their nose and voted for their party regardless.
Something not uncommon in Britain. FPP voting means that majority governments with a minority of the vote are common. Hardly a legitimate criticism.

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Originally Posted by Verd View Post
It's thanks to Thatcher the Tories have almost no traction in Scotland anymore. Only the most obtuse of her most ardent supporters would insist that Thatcher was a leader who governed by consensus-building and a mandate of the people by majority consent/rule, instead of being the stubbornly divisive go-it-alone figure she was.
Of course she didn't govern by consensus. You fail to demonstrate why this is a bad thing however.

"To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects."
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