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Old 04-11-2013, 02:22 PM   #181
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Meaningless platitudes. Such mealy-mouthed self-righteous sentiment does not pay the bills. A strong, stable, growth economy is the fundamental basis for the improvement of living standards.

Thatcher gave Britain back a strong economy, and everybody who loves the welfare state should be kissing her backside to thank her for the luxury of being able to argue that it should be extended and improved.


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Ignorance is preferable to foolishness.


ORLY? Three day weeks and the Winter of Discontent isn't evidence of a country on the verge of complete economic collapse? Please, tell me more.
A strong economy? 1 deep recession and an economy propped up by North Sea oil sales which she was lucky enough to be in office to benefit from, and and propped up by knock-down sales of state-owned assets that provided a one-time boost to the exchequer, and explosion of spending due to unsustainable personal borrowing. Followed by another recession as Thatcherite hubris met its inevitable nemesis. Growth in the 90s and 00s under Major and Blair sustained by yet more personal borrowing and cheap imports from China. And then the whole long charade collapsed under its own weight of unsustainability in 2007.

What Thatcher left us was a deeply unbalanced economy, dependent on cheap imports, easy credit, and a financial City that relied much too heavily on the trade of complex and risky financial instruments. A reality that Governments before the crash and after have done little to change.

The unions have been smashed and we can see the consequences - increased inequality. Wages rising slower than prices time after time after time, meaning real cuts in the value of peoples' net pay at a time when all other bills are rising. People needing to be subsidised in work by the Government to top up their salaries because employers won't countenance the idea of paying a wage people can live on. That's one perversity of this whole system, one of many.

Good heavens, you have swallowed the Thatcherite hagiographies hook, line and sinker.

I am willing to admit she did some things right.

Are you willing to admit she did some things wrong, and if so, what?
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:35 PM   #182
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

There are plenty of things she did wrong. Section 28 was wrong. Raising interest rates when the North was starting to recover was wrong. Failing to adequately replenish housing stocks after the sell-off was wrong. I could name a dozen other things to boot.

What wasn't wrong was stuffing Scargill and his self-entitled mates, stopping the gravy train of subsidies to the North, and looking after the national interest first and regional interests second. As I said, all those with their snouts in the trough (and their patronising enablers such as yourself) were upset. That's what happens when you take away someone's free ride. The culture of personal responsibility and aspiration that she imposed on the nation has been praised by everyone from Mitterand to Miliband.

Anyone remotely informed and impartial about the situation can see that Thatcher rescued the country from the brink of collapse, and put it back on top of the world economically in a frame of time that seemed inconceivable at the end of the 1970s. Regardless of whether you think she was a bit tough and nasty about how she did it, the results speak for themselves.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:51 PM   #183
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Cool story, but I would prefer if you could relate your own experiences with her rule.
You must remember her in her prime, maybe you got to vote for/against her as well.

So tell me - honestly - what did you think about her and her ways back in the 80s? You were certainly younger and some other things may have changed.
I left the UK to escape the drudgery of Wilsonism and find a better life, in 1967.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:53 PM   #184
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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There are plenty of things she did wrong. Section 28 was wrong. Raising interest rates when the North was starting to recover was wrong. Failing to adequately replenish housing stocks after the sell-off was wrong. I could name a dozen other things to boot.

What wasn't wrong was stuffing Scargill and his self-entitled mates, stopping the gravy train of subsidies to the North, and looking after the national interest first and regional interests second. As I said, all those with their snouts in the trough (and their patronising enablers such as yourself) were upset. That's what happens when you take away someone's free ride. The culture of personal responsibility and aspiration that she imposed on the nation has been praised by everyone from Mitterand to Miliband.

Anyone remotely informed and impartial about the situation can see that Thatcher rescued the country from the brink of collapse, and put it back on top of the world economically in a frame of time that seemed inconceivable at the end of the 1970s. Regardless of whether you think she was a bit tough and nasty about how she did it, the results speak for themselves.
The results do indeed speak for themselves. Short term boom, long term bust. Fixing the immediate problem and sowing the seeds for the next, worse one. Huge damage done to communities across the country which still have not recovered. Inequality wide, wider and widening. One time gains for the exchequer leading to long term problems for the people as they are gouged on housing, utilities and rail by private companies with no concern for the affordability of their services.

Thatcher rescued the country in 1979 - although economic growth had returned under IMF supervision, inflation was still too high and the unions were still out of control.

What she did with the country she rescued was sow the seeds for more problems. The country was in a hell of a mess in 1990 when she was ejected by her own MPs from the office she loved. Not as bad as 1979, for sure, but another deep, painful recession, negative equity, the intrinsic unfairness of the Poll Tax getting people out rioting in the streets. There were reasons why she was kicked out, a fact conveniently overlooked by her supporters. And we can see now the long-term effects of the policies she instigated have been no less damaging to the country than the situation pre-1979 was. Then it was out of control unions, now it's out of control international corporations and finance. The only difference is, nobody is bothering to bring them under control, as Thatcher did with the unions.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:00 PM   #185
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

In any case, I am ready to move on from this now.

I have stated my positions and beliefs, others have done the same, I don't see any likelihood of a meeting of minds here and it would be a waste of time to continue talking across each other.

For her supporters, please do enjoy paying your respects at her State-in-all-but-name-paid-for-largely-by-the-taxpayer Funeral next Wednesday.

I will be paying no attention.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:22 PM   #186
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
In any case, I am ready to move on from this now.

I have stated my positions and beliefs, others have done the same, I don't see any likelihood of a meeting of minds here and it would be a waste of time to continue talking across each other.

For her supporters, please do enjoy paying your respects at her State-in-all-but-name-paid-for-largely-by-the-taxpayer Funeral next Wednesday.

I will be paying no attention.
i was afraid that the thread would be locked after this.

no offense but when a mod states that there would be "a waste of time to continue talking across each other" the thread is usually locked right away. it's like the kid who takes the ball away with him when he gets bored of the match.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:25 PM   #187
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I'm not a mod.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #188
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.
She denounced local education authorities for teaching children that 'they have an inalienable right to be gay.' Forced on her?
Section 28, outlawing a 'pretend family relationship.' Can government be anymore condescending? Section 28 had a devastating effect on a number of students at my school. A derogatory homophobic remark could be shouted and any teachers present were suddenly deaf. Homophobic bullying was rife and teachers ignored it in my first year and in my fifth. In RE classes at schhol we were taught the basics of the jewish faith, I ain't jewish. How can gay be taught?

Lord Halsbury, who was 'responsible' for this hateful law - 'Some homosexuals are suffering symptoms of promiscuity, exhibitionism & boasting of achievements.' 'Reservoirs' for VD.
If the homosexual part is ignored, in East Manchester this is known as lad culture.

1987 - Election campaign featured a billboard with a line of young men wearing badges such as 'Gay pride' and 'Gay sports day' with a slogan, 'This is Labour's camp. Do you want to live in it?.' Surely she approved the campaign?

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Look at her record on homosexuality prior to becoming leader. It was out of character.
Granted she was one of the few tories to vote for the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. One of the arguments at the time was that gay people should be free from threat of prison so they could 'seek treatment.' Doubt this means finding a fella.
Lady Young led the campaign against Tony Blair's scrapping of section 28 in 2000, Thatcher sat next to Young in the vote. Wonder how she voted?

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Look at this thread - the people who hate Thatcher are from the regions that suffered under her...
It's the massive subsidies that were used to keep industries afloat that should not have existed.
I find this as 'shocking' as Verd. 'the regions that suffered' - Yorkshire, Merseyside & Greater Manchester combined contain more people,
about a million more than all/self important (Gr)London? Of course few are aware of the fact as London dominates the UK like no other capital city (dominates their country) on earth.

What about the banking subsidies? The 90+ billion given to four UK banks in 2009 + 2010. 2011, another 30+ billion. Oh yeah they're not manufacturing industries & more importantly the SE would be affected.

Closure of British coal mining industry > revenge > NUM bt Heath government.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:53 PM   #189
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

The only memorial that matters next week is on Monday April 15.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:40 PM   #190
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.
Nobody intelligent enough to turn on a PC could possibly believe this garbage, so I am going to assume you're just a liar.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:57 PM   #191
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Europe - it does em all in! The video footage of Thatcher moving the German flag & replacing it with the Union Jack in front of Kohl - sums up Britain & Europe still. Commonwealth conferences, 48-1 three times, I can't fault her conviction.
She 'made' spitting image.
Thatcher signed up the Single European Act. She was a devoted Europeist !! Her successor voted the Maastricht Treaty. Both treaties were, of course, irresponsible.

Heath's government joined the EU, while De Gaulle vetoed x3 UK's joining. Thatcher was in it. She gave a lot of subsidies to the CERN as Minister of Research.

Thatcher also presided over a mass immigration from Eastern Euro countries that came to the British job market, adding to the impoverishment of the British small middle class.

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People who blame Thatcher for everything seem to block out the fact that she was elected three times. A fairly sure indication that she was carrying out the will of the people. So why not just heap your scorn on the electorate? She was serving the nation.
I don't believe in democracy.

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churchill is vastly overrated as a prime minister. whilst definitely a great wartime leader, it is often forgotten that he lost the 1945 election, which is pretty crazy considering how popular he himself was as a result of the war.
What? Help?

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I thought Blair's first term (1997-01) was excellent
Jesus !!

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:18 PM   #192
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Jesus !!
He introduced the minimum wage, unemployment was at its lowest in around 30 years, repealed Section 28 amongst other things. There will be some that say he was fortunate to enter power during an economic boom- one that Merseyside benefitted greatly from him. I never liked him personally but I won't slate his first few years in charge.

Then came Iraq, then came his selfishness and his deception just to please his master Dubya, and he went stale domestically, especially in his speeches and his aims. He started talking like a real Tory.

I don't consider him a great PM though.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:01 PM   #193
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

So the taxpayer will be funding this Margaret Thatcher funeral?
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:50 PM   #194
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Her successor voted the Maastricht Treaty. Both treaties were, of course, irresponsible.
Maastricht Treaty - Signed the treaty after opting out of the social chapter & EMU - what a partner we were/are! European interference in the workplace, the UK was going to stumble with this one, particularly a tory government. Eight years later the UK (labour) signed up to the social chapter if I remember correctly.

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So the taxpayer will be funding this Margaret Thatcher funeral?
Despite Thatcher owning a five-storey property in Belgravia, central London. Cost of a three month stay at the Ritz? Will the cost of the funeral be made available (after it's been held of course?)
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:05 PM   #195
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Well I'm definitely not an expert so I would defer to someone on is on matters of terminology and fact.

Let me turn around the question onto you, since you are better qualified perhaps to answer it - what do you think caused it? How did mispricing risk come about? Why were regulators and others not awake to the fact that risk was being mispriced and an unsustainable asset bubble was being created?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
In any case, I am ready to move on from this now.

I have stated my positions and beliefs, others have done the same, I don't see any likelihood of a meeting of minds here and it would be a waste of time to continue talking across each other.

For her supporters, please do enjoy paying your respects at her State-in-all-but-name-paid-for-largely-by-the-taxpayer Funeral next Wednesday.

I will be paying no attention.
I hope we can still have small chat on the subject of the financial crisis... It's such an interesting topic and one of my favorite ones to discuss with different people to gain new perspectives on it. I'm just swamped with school work at the moment but I will return to the issue tomorrow probably.
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