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Old 04-11-2013, 11:52 AM   #166
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Indeed, its good to see Labour being Labour too.

Well, at least one of them.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:21 PM   #167
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.


Not a student of history I see. Although you're Scottish so you were probably fed this tripe by your parents, not your fault.


You realise that even the Argentine Navy regards it as a legitimate act of war?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ask-Force.html



If you're going to be so hateful towards someone, you could at least get your facts straight. Otherwise anyone might think your rants are fuelled by little more than ignorant bile.
I'm not a student of history, well what the hell are you a student of if you think that Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights? That is one of the most laughable comments on here. I can see why people praise her for privatisation, smashing the unions, etc (i profoundly disagree with them, but they are legitimate points of view) but gay rights? apart from anything else, if you were a student of politics, you'd know that the path of section 28/clause 2A started in 1979 and was only formalised in law in the late 80s. unless you're saying that thatcher was especially vulnerable throughout her reign, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
I see that you quote the daily mail to back up your point of view. this is the same newspaper who called out the labour-led council which provided such progressive books as "Jenny Lives with Eric and Martin" in school libraries and then ridiculed them and passed them off as perverts, etc.

as for the falklands, i know exactly how the war started, and sure, thatcher took advantage of argentina's actions for her own ends, but essentially she went to war over nothing of consequence except the last dregs of the empire. she then cosied up to pinochet and brought forward the general election to 1983 to capitalise on the jingoism (and downright racist nationalism) that the war provided.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:26 PM   #168
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

That's the problem with "Labour," not enough of them are actually Labour.

Same here in the US with Democrats, who respond to right-wing BS from Republicans with milquetoast, centrist pandering and essentially allow radical versions of right-wing thought to shift "the center" of the national debate, to the point that Obama's policies would overlap quite nicely with Reagan. He's the first Democratic President in history to propose cuts to Social Security and Medicare. But tell a current mainstream Republican or Democrat that Obama is far more in line with a Reagan than he is to a traditional Democrat and their head would explode.

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What I find most ironic in my country is the contrasting reactions of the right to the deaths of Hugo Chavez and Margaret Thatcher.

Because he was of the Left, the Right in this country felt entitled to say whatever the hell they wanted and accord no respect whatsoever. However, they demand that everyone pay respects to Thatcher and work up quite an outrage that some people might have the temerity to feel her legacy was an imperfect one.
Precisely, the idea that we can be critical about leftist leaders (and make no mistake Chavez was horrible in many aspects, despite doing plenty of good for the Venezuelan underclass) but murderers and enablers of poverty on the right should be lionized or even deified when there is nowhere near any agreement, let alone consensus, on the efficacy of their policies on their people is BS.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:27 PM   #169
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Look at this thread - the people who hate Thatcher are from the regions that suffered under her
I like that 1. you admit that entire regions suffered under her and that 2. you say it like it's some sort of revelation that it's the people she harmed that don't like her.

Not to mention that saying that "the North had to take its medicine" as if it was a one-time spoonful of distasteful policy that magically fixed the disease is BS. Entire communities still suffer to this day; The Economist (a US publication that is nowhere close to being left-wing or even center-left) just last year referred to Thatcher and the role she played in exacerbating the Glasgow effect and the increased income inequality her tenure ushered in.

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The people who suffered in the regions did not do so solely on the basis of state subsidies that were withdrawn. What you apparently fail to appreciate is that the swingeing hatchet-job she took to the economy after 1979 hurt competitive industry as well as uncompetitive industry as her over-tight squeeze on spending dragged the economy into depression.
Yup, not to mention that Thatcherism led directly to the economic collapse of 2008. This is why the view Thatcher among the right, or among center-left apologists (or among anyone with willfully short memories and a lack of understanding of cause and effect) as some sort of free market hero is all the more ridiculous.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:33 PM   #170
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Yup, not to mention that Thatcherism led directly to the economic collapse of 2008.
Not going to dabble in the UK politics but this quote is interesting. I'd like to see the cause-and-effect diagram here.

How on Earth did Thatcherism cause the housing bubble in the US? Or are you referring to something else than the global financial crisis?
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:34 PM   #171
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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That Glenda Jackson polemic was absolutely superb.


It was definitely needed, shame more didn't follow suit.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:43 PM   #172
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Not going to dabble in the UK politics but this quote is interesting. I'd like to see the cause-and-effect diagram here.

How on Earth did Thatcherism cause the housing bubble in the US? Or are you referring to something else than the global financial crisis?
The 2007-2012 crisis was not limited to the US housing bubble. Look up Big Bang deregulation in London, Thatcher had a direct hand in deregulating the London banks in the 1980s.

Even the Torygraph admitted as much that deregulation led directly to the crash:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...d-Britain.html
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:48 PM   #173
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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The 2007-2012 crisis was not limited to the US housing bubble. Look up Big Bang deregulation in London, Thatcher had a direct hand in deregulating the London banks in the 1980s.
Of course it isn't. But the roots of it all lied in the mortgage market in the US. It spread all over the world because all banks had assets in US CDOs, which were ultimately proven rotten to the core.

It's a case of mispricing risk. But in the end, it originated in the US and then spread over to other countries, causing many different effects that we are still experiencing today. I just fail to see how deregulating banks in London led into the underlying cause of the financial crisis, which came from the US housing market.

EDIT: Oh, based on the article we're talking about Britain's case specifically, so we're not talking about the global financial crisis. Understood. Well, it's evident that any country with a strong banking presence would be more affected by the crisis than those with a lower one. Here in Finland we survived that crash quite well but the Eurocrisis is worse.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:01 PM   #174
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Deregulation, and a cosy relationship between banks and the regulators for those regulations that did remain, certainly led to the financial crisis of 2007, and that process can be traced back to deregulation in 1986 in London, and perhaps more pertinently, the advent of new technology, screen trading, and renumeration structures that rewarded short term profits, whatever the long term consequences - those features occurred in New York and other financial centres, not just London. This crisis was a global one that began in the US and was exported around the world due to the intertwined nature of international finance, which was helped by deregulation. This is one reason I find it so completely odious that the UK Coalition blame Labour for everything, when they merely happened to be in office when it all blew up and did a good job of putting a floor under the resulting economic collapse, which this Coalition has managed to reverse.

Blaming Thatcher for the financial crisis in a practical sense would be pointless - her and her ideology may have helped kick off the process that ultimately led to the meltdown but many others in between 86 and 07 have dirtier hands than she. The reason Thatcher gets dragged into this is because ultimately this was a consequence of her ideology - free markets, deregulation, untrammelled wealth and the notion that the market is ultimately self-correcting and self-sustaining.

That ideology was grabbed by those who followed her and taken to extremes - extremes to which she perhaps might never have intended them to go, but that's the problem with the FREE market - nobody is in control of the consequences, and it turns out that the market is not self-correcting and self-sustaining at all.

Well, in fact it is, if you're prepared to put up with the consequences of the entire meltdown of the interconnected global financial system. The trouble is, once the free marketeers peered over that abyss, they decided that perhaps pure Capitalism wasn't so grand after all, and decided to let the good old State (or nation states in general) foot the bill for keeping their free market capitalism a going concern - and so we socialised the losses while the profits remained privatised - and people wonder why we're so angry as those with least are hammered by cuts to their lifelines while those with the most sail merrily on with minimal consequences.

We can only wonder what she would have made of all this - she was largely silent on such matters due to her withdrawal from public life and her ill health. But I suspect she would have gone the same route as the current pack of weasels in office - prop up the existing order by any means necessary, no matter how many supposed tenets of free market capitalism you have to break in order to do it. As we have seen in Cyprus, this apparently has no limits - even seizing peoples' private wealth from their bank accounts, to prop up this broken system - and yet the right to property is the fundamental basis on which capitalism is formed.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:08 PM   #175
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
The people who suffered in the regions did not do so solely on the basis of state subsidies that were withdrawn. What you apparently fail to appreciate is that the swingeing hatchet-job she took to the economy after 1979 hurt competitive industry as well as uncompetitive industry as her over-tight squeeze on spending dragged the economy into depression. Recession was already guaranteed due to the 1979 energy crisis, but the tight squeeze made it much worse and forced out of business companies that would have made it through otherwise.
Nothing but leftist hyperbole. Industrial output and manufacturing rose exponentially under Thatcher. Even coal output was higher when she left office, despite the pit closures. It's a wonder what you can do when you trim the fat.

I guess you liked the fat subsidies under Wilson though, eh comrade? When are you moving to Greece?

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I'm not a student of history, well what the hell are you a student of if you think that Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights? That is one of the most laughable comments on here. I can see why people praise her for privatisation, smashing the unions, etc (i profoundly disagree with them, but they are legitimate points of view) but gay rights? apart from anything else, if you were a student of politics, you'd know that the path of section 28/clause 2A started in 1979 and was only formalised in law in the late 80s. unless you're saying that thatcher was especially vulnerable throughout her reign, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Only if you are uneducated. Thatcher was one of a small handful of Conservative MPs to vote in favour of decriminalising homosexuality in the '60s. She was a young, female politician and it was not a smart career move. It was a commendable act of bravery and shows that it was a matter she felt strongly on.

In the 1980s she was under a great deal of pressure from Knight and the back bench to support the Section 28 bill in the face of the AIDS epidemic. It was not something she proposed, but if she had not supported it then she would have caused ructions with the great majority of her party.

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I see that you quote the daily mail to back up your point of view. this is the same newspaper who called out the labour-led council which provided such progressive books as "Jenny Lives with Eric and Martin" in school libraries and then ridiculed them and passed them off as perverts, etc.
I posted it because of the facts it contained. Unless you dispute the facts the publication it comes out of is irrelevant, because it is not an opinion piece.

But since you mention it, I don't suppose you have noticed that 3 of every 4 critical opinion pieces about Thatcher that have been posted in this thread are from the Guardian? Didn't think so.

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as for the falklands, i know exactly how the war started, and sure, thatcher took advantage of argentina's actions for her own ends, but essentially she went to war over nothing of consequence except the last dregs of the empire. she then cosied up to pinochet and brought forward the general election to 1983 to capitalise on the jingoism (and downright racist nationalism) that the war provided.
Yes, how dare she authorise a strike on a squadron of ships that were moving upon British sovereign territory with hostile intent, in violation of prior warnings during a heightened state of military confrontation.

I suppose you would have rolled out the red carpet for them.

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I like that 1. you admit that entire regions suffered under her and that 2. you say it like it's some sort of revelation that it's the people she harmed that don't like her.
And here is demonstrated the shitty logic used by all of your ilk.

Just because they suffered under her doesn't mean that she should be blamed. The fate of the North was preordained. She merely administered the coup de grace.

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Originally Posted by Verd View Post
Not to mention that saying that "the North had to take its medicine" as if it was a one-time spoonful of distasteful policy that magically fixed the disease is BS. Entire communities still suffer to this day; The Economist (a US publication that is nowhere close to being left-wing or even center-left) just last year referred to Thatcher and the role she played in exacerbating the Glasgow effect and the increased income inequality her tenure ushered in.
You cannot make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. England was in cardiac arrest in 1979. Drastic action was needed. The North suffered so badly because for two decades previously, governments had fiddled while Rome burned. Uneconomic coal mines alone were costing the country over a billion pounds a year, and the unions were demanding 10% pay rises.

Thatcher could have dealt with the North less harshly but it would have been at the expense of the overall economy. That was something Britain could ill afford.

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Yup, not to mention that Thatcherism led directly to the economic collapse of 2008.
Well, I guess if you are going to grasp at straws you may as well make them the big ones.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:11 PM   #176
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I'm looking at Glenda, a very successful and accomplished person, (and a beauty) then I think about Thatcher who was also by all accounts a very successful individual, her life just spells success any way you want to look at it. She ended up in the House of Lords if that means something, it certainly does in the UK.

In an "aspiring" society such as Britain, or rather very class-sensitive society, the success and pride that comes with it are multiplied, as are horrors that come with failure, to the extent that failure dehumanizes people. It's a European cultural trait I am afraid, seen in its purest form and glory in England. So "thatcherism" is just a word for that ways in another era and circumstances, basically it's the same old story.

As she famously said, there is no society, just individuals. So, if that's true, it was all about her success, not the succes of the UK. I wouldn't mind if there was no such thing as society, but everywhere I look I still see people.

the problem is not about success...if you are successful, good for you, great, I have great respect for successful people. But what with the weaker people? And it's a problem on the global scale. People are indeed different when it comes to skills, strength, knowledge etc, but everyone in each corner of the world has their potentials and should have the right to dignity and opportunity. Unforunatelly, masses of people are first stripped off their opportunities, then their dignity, and it ends with a horrible dehumanization.

From such a grim starting point, everything is possible...despair, frustrations, fear, oppression, manipulation and finally wars and mass killings.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:23 PM   #177
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Deregulation, and a cosy relationship between banks and the regulators for those regulations that did remain, certainly led to the financial crisis of 2007, and that process can be traced back to deregulation in 1986 in London, and perhaps more pertinently, the advent of new technology, screen trading, and renumeration structures that rewarded short term profits, whatever the long term consequences - those features occurred in New York and other financial centres, not just London. This crisis was a global one that began in the US and was exported around the world due to the intertwined nature of international finance, which was helped by deregulation. This is one reason I find it so completely odious that the UK Coalition blame Labour for everything, when they merely happened to be in office when it all blew up and did a good job of putting a floor under the resulting economic collapse, which this Coalition has managed to reverse.
How well versed are you with the mechanisms of the financial crisis and the banking sector? I'm not trying to be condescending but I've studied these topics in the University during my studies in Economics and so I don't want to use terminology that you are not familiar with and appear all high and mighty .

What aspects of deregulation specifically are you saying caused the crisis? Because the fundamental issue in this whole thing is mispricing risk, selling assets with a price that did not correspond with the truth. There are plenty of interesting aspects to discuss here but I want to narrow down the point of discussion.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:31 PM   #178
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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As she famously said, there is no society, just individuals.
One of the most misrepresented phrases of the 20th century. The full context from the same interview:

There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate.

It was not an ode to selfishness. It was an ode to personal responsibility. Too often people use 'society' as this nebulous construct and say it is responsible for solving problems, when we should be taking responsibility ourselves - whether that is to fix our own situation, or help our neighbour fix his.

We abrogate our own duties when we say something is society's fault, or society's job to fix. Society, insofar as it exists, is us.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:33 PM   #179
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Blaming Thatcher for the financial crisis in a practical sense would be pointless - her and her ideology may have helped kick off the process that ultimately led to the meltdown but many others in between 86 and 07 have dirtier hands than she. The reason Thatcher gets dragged into this is because ultimately this was a consequence of her ideology - free markets, deregulation, untrammelled wealth and the notion that the market is ultimately self-correcting and self-sustaining.
You want to start blaming everyone associated with a particular ideology for the subsequent consequences, then you may as well blame the Labour movement for Stalin's purges.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:37 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Nothing but leftist hyperbole. Industrial output and manufacturing rose exponentially under Thatcher. Even coal output was higher when she left office, despite the pit closures. It's a wonder what you can do when you trim the fat.
You can call me leftist all you like as though this wear some insult - I wear it as a badge of honour, the same way I wear gay as a badge of honour, in spite of that also being seen in its day as a thing of immorality under Thatcher's government.

What I liked was that people had employment and were valued. When that 'fat' was trimmed, people were thrown on the scrapheap and given no help to get back off it again, and were told it was their own fault. Change happens, I am no Luddite, but the human consequences were terrible and were met by an uncaring response from her Government, which condemned many workers and their children to dreadful poverty, disillusionment, stress and physical and mental illness.

Yes, manufacturing rose under Thatcher's 11 years, as new technologies came on stream and productivity increases replaced the thousands who were now on the welfare roles. It did so after dropping dramatically in the early 80s as the disastrous recession, exacerbated by Thatcherite economic policies wreaked havoc, and then rebounded in the later 80s as economic growth finally returned and the economy, after 7 years of Thatcher, finally returned to 1979 levels. I'm not sure I see your point - all recessions end eventually, and growth returns, it's part of the cyclical nature of capitalism. Government policy can exacerbate and worsen the recession, as it did under Margaret Thatcher, or it can help to alleviate it and reduce its impact on the most vulnerable.

It's no accident that under Gordon Brown, the UK recession that followed the 2007 crash ended and growth had returned to the economy by 2010, while as soon as the Tories took over, their spending squeeze, echoing Thatcher's mistakes of 1979-1981, threw the economy back into recession and stagnation.
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