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Old 04-11-2013, 08:50 AM   #151
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Normal so if you disagree now you're abnormal. Delightful.

And it absolutely is not true - demonising people for claiming a benefit while unemployed that they paid for with their taxes while they are in work is not having your snout in the trough. That's the attitude of back then, and that we're seeing again, that blame poor people for their own circumstances, blame them for not getting jobs when there are nowhere near enough jobs out there for everyone to get. That's not their individual fault, that is the way of the economic system in which we live.

I think the majority would agree that some of what she did was necessary, but how much, how far, how fast, and especially how harsh - that debate is where the real differences lie.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:04 AM   #152
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
I think the majority would agree that some of what she did was necessary, but how much, how far, how fast, and especially how harsh - that debate is where the real differences lie.
I think her first mandate was probably needed, and then she overstayed, due to folkland war, politics that favored divisions, war with the unions, problems with Northern Irelans etc in the old divide et empira form. People often opt for what they perceive a strong remedy to a sickness, that is why she was always so controversial, respected and hated at the same time.

She should not have let her own conservatives oust her eventually. She had to know when to retreat, that's her own fault.
It clearly shows she was too much self-righteous and lacked a certain sense of proportion.

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Old 04-11-2013, 09:12 AM   #153
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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And it absolutely is not true - demonising people for claiming a benefit while unemployed that they paid for with their taxes while they are in work is not having your snout in the trough.
Look at this thread - the people who hate Thatcher are from the regions that suffered under her, who whine about what she did without acknowledging that their misery was predetermined well before she ever came to power.

The snout in the trough isn't unemployment benefits. It's the massive subsidies that were used to keep industries afloat that should not have existed. She withdrew the support and people demonised her, when the support should never have existed in the first place because it was killing the country.

The North had to take its medicine. If previous governments had more testicular fortitude, then Thatcher would never have been needed. People like yourself would do well to recognise it, rather than engage in wailing and handwringing about 'fairness', and enabling their victim mentality.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:20 AM   #154
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

The people who suffered in the regions did not do so solely on the basis of state subsidies that were withdrawn. What you apparently fail to appreciate is that the swingeing hatchet-job she took to the economy after 1979 hurt competitive industry as well as uncompetitive industry as her over-tight squeeze on spending dragged the economy into depression. Recession was already guaranteed due to the 1979 energy crisis, but the tight squeeze made it much worse and forced out of business companies that would have made it through otherwise.

Then there's the fact that the impact of these closures were never addressed - little was done to help people turfed out of work back onto the employment ladder - they were blamed, stigmatised and castigated for being losers in a system they tried their best to work within.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:22 AM   #155
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Normal people realise...
Are you originally from Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia?

Here we can ask the usual question "Are you normal?" with that meaning of reasoned, prudent, sane, just etc
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:46 AM   #156
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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I hope for your sake that your self-determination never runs into the realities of life over which you have no control - and I hope that if/when you need a helping hand, you will indeed be given one instead of someone reading you some inane and self-righteous spiel about free will and choice.
Blah-blah-blah... as per usual with leftists.
My family (factory workers, engineers and an accountant) had to go through the whole country collapsing, hyperinflation, job losses -- direct results of the "bright" future leftwingers are campaigning for. I witnessed my grandmother suffer a heart attack queuing up for eggs and butter in an empty grocery store (socialism always ends up with empty stores). So don't tell me about "the realities of life".
Was it easy to overcome? Hell NO. Lots of people, those who were corrupted by socialism and used to be paid for producing nothing, are still not over it. It's much easier to lay blame on everyone else than shut up and actually try to do something.

You know, Stalin was planning to turn the whole world into communism, install Soviet government everywhere -- from Paraguay to New Zeland. And he or, rather, the useful idiots in the West on which he could always rely succeeded. I'm sure he would be happy to see what Eurobureaucracy has done to Europe and how the left propaganda has been defining the public opinion for decades now.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:00 AM   #157
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

As human beings we are more inclined to forgive and forget as time passes us by. However, I don't think the majority of those who frown upon her tenure as PM will ever 'forgive and forget', and understandably so. She was divisive as many have said, to the extent where people's lives were ruined forever. That's not right in my eyes.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:41 AM   #158
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I thoroughly disagree with Thatcherism, I think its abhorrent and selfish. But that said, her tenure as PM did revitalise many aspects of British life. I respect and despise her in different measure. As a humanist, I believe a persons death should never be celebrated. So there is absolutely no ill feeling towards her as a human being outside of politics. She had many people who loved her and she has now passed on, that is something which is sad, regardless of political polemics.

However, that aside, many still feel a gross injustice reverberant today from her policies, and while many regard her as saving the economy, I merely see her as delaying the meltdown for another couple of decades.

Its already been said best in these two articles, I make no attempt to hide my left wing political stance, I absolutely share the sentiment of these two commentators. Two quotes from these run so true with me:

It always struck me as peculiar, too, when the Spice Girls briefly championed Thatcher as an early example of girl power. I don't see that. She is an anomaly; a product of the freak-onomy of her time. Barack Obama, interestingly, said in his statement that she had "broken the glass ceiling for other women". Only in the sense that all the women beneath her were blinded by falling shards. She is an icon of individualism, not of feminism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...garet-thatcher

and

The price of everything and the value of nothing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:46 AM   #159
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That Glenda Jackson polemic was absolutely superb.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:52 AM   #160
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Indeed, its good to see Labour being Labour too.

Well, at least one of them.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:21 PM   #161
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Actually, Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights. She was a strong and early supporter of decriminalising homosexuality. Section 28 was forced on her by her back bench during a time she was politically vulnerable.


Not a student of history I see. Although you're Scottish so you were probably fed this tripe by your parents, not your fault.


You realise that even the Argentine Navy regards it as a legitimate act of war?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ask-Force.html



If you're going to be so hateful towards someone, you could at least get your facts straight. Otherwise anyone might think your rants are fuelled by little more than ignorant bile.
I'm not a student of history, well what the hell are you a student of if you think that Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights? That is one of the most laughable comments on here. I can see why people praise her for privatisation, smashing the unions, etc (i profoundly disagree with them, but they are legitimate points of view) but gay rights? apart from anything else, if you were a student of politics, you'd know that the path of section 28/clause 2A started in 1979 and was only formalised in law in the late 80s. unless you're saying that thatcher was especially vulnerable throughout her reign, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
I see that you quote the daily mail to back up your point of view. this is the same newspaper who called out the labour-led council which provided such progressive books as "Jenny Lives with Eric and Martin" in school libraries and then ridiculed them and passed them off as perverts, etc.

as for the falklands, i know exactly how the war started, and sure, thatcher took advantage of argentina's actions for her own ends, but essentially she went to war over nothing of consequence except the last dregs of the empire. she then cosied up to pinochet and brought forward the general election to 1983 to capitalise on the jingoism (and downright racist nationalism) that the war provided.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:33 PM   #162
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Yup, not to mention that Thatcherism led directly to the economic collapse of 2008.
Not going to dabble in the UK politics but this quote is interesting. I'd like to see the cause-and-effect diagram here.

How on Earth did Thatcherism cause the housing bubble in the US? Or are you referring to something else than the global financial crisis?
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:48 PM   #163
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The 2007-2012 crisis was not limited to the US housing bubble. Look up Big Bang deregulation in London, Thatcher had a direct hand in deregulating the London banks in the 1980s.
Of course it isn't. But the roots of it all lied in the mortgage market in the US. It spread all over the world because all banks had assets in US CDOs, which were ultimately proven rotten to the core.

It's a case of mispricing risk. But in the end, it originated in the US and then spread over to other countries, causing many different effects that we are still experiencing today. I just fail to see how deregulating banks in London led into the underlying cause of the financial crisis, which came from the US housing market.

EDIT: Oh, based on the article we're talking about Britain's case specifically, so we're not talking about the global financial crisis. Understood. Well, it's evident that any country with a strong banking presence would be more affected by the crisis than those with a lower one. Here in Finland we survived that crash quite well but the Eurocrisis is worse.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:01 PM   #164
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Deregulation, and a cosy relationship between banks and the regulators for those regulations that did remain, certainly led to the financial crisis of 2007, and that process can be traced back to deregulation in 1986 in London, and perhaps more pertinently, the advent of new technology, screen trading, and renumeration structures that rewarded short term profits, whatever the long term consequences - those features occurred in New York and other financial centres, not just London. This crisis was a global one that began in the US and was exported around the world due to the intertwined nature of international finance, which was helped by deregulation. This is one reason I find it so completely odious that the UK Coalition blame Labour for everything, when they merely happened to be in office when it all blew up and did a good job of putting a floor under the resulting economic collapse, which this Coalition has managed to reverse.

Blaming Thatcher for the financial crisis in a practical sense would be pointless - her and her ideology may have helped kick off the process that ultimately led to the meltdown but many others in between 86 and 07 have dirtier hands than she. The reason Thatcher gets dragged into this is because ultimately this was a consequence of her ideology - free markets, deregulation, untrammelled wealth and the notion that the market is ultimately self-correcting and self-sustaining.

That ideology was grabbed by those who followed her and taken to extremes - extremes to which she perhaps might never have intended them to go, but that's the problem with the FREE market - nobody is in control of the consequences, and it turns out that the market is not self-correcting and self-sustaining at all.

Well, in fact it is, if you're prepared to put up with the consequences of the entire meltdown of the interconnected global financial system. The trouble is, once the free marketeers peered over that abyss, they decided that perhaps pure Capitalism wasn't so grand after all, and decided to let the good old State (or nation states in general) foot the bill for keeping their free market capitalism a going concern - and so we socialised the losses while the profits remained privatised - and people wonder why we're so angry as those with least are hammered by cuts to their lifelines while those with the most sail merrily on with minimal consequences.

We can only wonder what she would have made of all this - she was largely silent on such matters due to her withdrawal from public life and her ill health. But I suspect she would have gone the same route as the current pack of weasels in office - prop up the existing order by any means necessary, no matter how many supposed tenets of free market capitalism you have to break in order to do it. As we have seen in Cyprus, this apparently has no limits - even seizing peoples' private wealth from their bank accounts, to prop up this broken system - and yet the right to property is the fundamental basis on which capitalism is formed.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:08 PM   #165
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
The people who suffered in the regions did not do so solely on the basis of state subsidies that were withdrawn. What you apparently fail to appreciate is that the swingeing hatchet-job she took to the economy after 1979 hurt competitive industry as well as uncompetitive industry as her over-tight squeeze on spending dragged the economy into depression. Recession was already guaranteed due to the 1979 energy crisis, but the tight squeeze made it much worse and forced out of business companies that would have made it through otherwise.
Nothing but leftist hyperbole. Industrial output and manufacturing rose exponentially under Thatcher. Even coal output was higher when she left office, despite the pit closures. It's a wonder what you can do when you trim the fat.

I guess you liked the fat subsidies under Wilson though, eh comrade? When are you moving to Greece?

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I'm not a student of history, well what the hell are you a student of if you think that Thatcher was a supporter of gay rights? That is one of the most laughable comments on here. I can see why people praise her for privatisation, smashing the unions, etc (i profoundly disagree with them, but they are legitimate points of view) but gay rights? apart from anything else, if you were a student of politics, you'd know that the path of section 28/clause 2A started in 1979 and was only formalised in law in the late 80s. unless you're saying that thatcher was especially vulnerable throughout her reign, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Only if you are uneducated. Thatcher was one of a small handful of Conservative MPs to vote in favour of decriminalising homosexuality in the '60s. She was a young, female politician and it was not a smart career move. It was a commendable act of bravery and shows that it was a matter she felt strongly on.

In the 1980s she was under a great deal of pressure from Knight and the back bench to support the Section 28 bill in the face of the AIDS epidemic. It was not something she proposed, but if she had not supported it then she would have caused ructions with the great majority of her party.

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I see that you quote the daily mail to back up your point of view. this is the same newspaper who called out the labour-led council which provided such progressive books as "Jenny Lives with Eric and Martin" in school libraries and then ridiculed them and passed them off as perverts, etc.
I posted it because of the facts it contained. Unless you dispute the facts the publication it comes out of is irrelevant, because it is not an opinion piece.

But since you mention it, I don't suppose you have noticed that 3 of every 4 critical opinion pieces about Thatcher that have been posted in this thread are from the Guardian? Didn't think so.

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as for the falklands, i know exactly how the war started, and sure, thatcher took advantage of argentina's actions for her own ends, but essentially she went to war over nothing of consequence except the last dregs of the empire. she then cosied up to pinochet and brought forward the general election to 1983 to capitalise on the jingoism (and downright racist nationalism) that the war provided.
Yes, how dare she authorise a strike on a squadron of ships that were moving upon British sovereign territory with hostile intent, in violation of prior warnings during a heightened state of military confrontation.

I suppose you would have rolled out the red carpet for them.

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I like that 1. you admit that entire regions suffered under her and that 2. you say it like it's some sort of revelation that it's the people she harmed that don't like her.
And here is demonstrated the shitty logic used by all of your ilk.

Just because they suffered under her doesn't mean that she should be blamed. The fate of the North was preordained. She merely administered the coup de grace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verd View Post
Not to mention that saying that "the North had to take its medicine" as if it was a one-time spoonful of distasteful policy that magically fixed the disease is BS. Entire communities still suffer to this day; The Economist (a US publication that is nowhere close to being left-wing or even center-left) just last year referred to Thatcher and the role she played in exacerbating the Glasgow effect and the increased income inequality her tenure ushered in.
You cannot make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. England was in cardiac arrest in 1979. Drastic action was needed. The North suffered so badly because for two decades previously, governments had fiddled while Rome burned. Uneconomic coal mines alone were costing the country over a billion pounds a year, and the unions were demanding 10% pay rises.

Thatcher could have dealt with the North less harshly but it would have been at the expense of the overall economy. That was something Britain could ill afford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verd View Post
Yup, not to mention that Thatcherism led directly to the economic collapse of 2008.
Well, I guess if you are going to grasp at straws you may as well make them the big ones.

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