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Old 04-11-2013, 01:58 AM   #136
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I thought Blair's first term (1997-01) was excellent but Iraq was the moment the honeymoon turned into a tragedy. The guy nowadays cracks me up, everything he comes out with is comedy gold.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:13 AM   #137
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Yes the Iraq War damaged his legacy big time. Sad, but well-deserved.

I never liked him (from my perspective "Third Way" is just moderate right-wing politics with makeup on) but he's just sad to me now and comes across as a person attempting to stay relevant. Even his recent comments that Thatcher directly paved the way for his "reforms" doesn't garner more than an eyeroll from me at this point.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:21 AM   #138
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Forced upon her what a load of drivel. She didn't have to go through with it. So much for her 'convictions' and 'iron lady' qualities everyone praises if a few backbench Tories twisted her head

As for politically vulnerable, she'd won the last election a year prior and the Poll Tax, her final death blow, had yet to be introduced. Wouldn't say she was cornered at all. Trying to defend a homophobic legislation is pretty low tbh.

Her proteges continued to oppose the repeal of Section 28 until it was finally abolished in 2000.
Look at her record on homosexuality prior to becoming leader. It was out of character. All politicians are subject to the will of their party to some extent. She threw a bone to the hardliners led by Jill Knight, one that had more symbolic than practical effect anyway.

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As for the Belgrano you're forgetting it was heading west at the time, outside the zone and Peru had a peace proposal on the table. Recklessly sinking it caused needless British and Argentine deaths due to it escalating conflict. Yes there was tensions and there was preparation for battle, but doing that put a stop to any peaceful resolution.
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Exactly, the Belgrano was retreating and Thatcher made an outrageous error of judgment.
Did either of you actually read the article I linked to?

The Belgrano was not retreating. It had temporarily altered its heading to reposition for an incursion into the exclusion zone, where it was to rendezvous with other Argentine ships. A fact that the British were aware of due to intercepted signals.

The Argentines had been warned the previous week that being outside the exclusion zone did not render ships automatically safe, and that if ships outside that area were perceived as a threat they would be attacked. A squadron of Argentinian ships heading into the exclusion zone is about as threatening as it gets before you are actually under attack.

I cannot believe you guys are still peddling the lie that it was a war crime when even the Argentine Admiralty and the captain of the ship that was sunk agree that it was a perfectly legitimate act of war.

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As a US native I don't for one second think that I am entitled to hold the same outrage as the people of Chile, South Africa, Argentina, Scotland, the North, et cetera, but some of the people baying for respect are ridiculous when they can't take a second to understand the horrific legacy of this woman that is motivating otherwise compassionate people to actually want to celebrate an old lady's death. Poverty rates doubled, tripled over her tenure in office, and she was not a passive participant in that fall, she had a firm hand on that doomed rudder.

Remembering that this woman was a murderer and an enabler of murderers, apartheid, homelessness, and poverty is only acknowledging the truth. Thatcherism is still dominant in the UK and the mainstream left has been successfully marginalized. You only have to look to Blair's time in office and Clegg's lapdogging to see that. While I agree with many of my fellow leftists that Thatcher's death should primarily serve as a reminder to continue organizing against her style of destructive governance, forgive me for not giving a crap that some of my sisters and brothers in the UK, Argentina, Chile, etc. who have seen and been a part of the destructive legacy of this woman will actually pop a champagne cork in Trafalgar Square (or wherever they are) and let off some steam at her passing.
Mealy-mouthed dissembling. Many people suffered, but that is what happens in hard times when difficult decisions must be made.

The woman took a Britain on the verge of utter economic destruction after the Winter of Discontent, and put it back on top of the world within a decade. History will remember her as Britain's greatest peacetime Prime Minister.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:34 AM   #139
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Mealy-mouthed dissembling. Many people suffered, but that is what happens in hard times when difficult decisions must be made.

The woman took a Britain on the verge of utter economic destruction after the Winter of Discontent, and put it back on top of the world within a decade. History will remember her as Britain's greatest peacetime Prime Minister.
Hagiography =/= history. The idea that any leader should be praised for helping the economy of the country at the expense of the people in it is ridiculous.

"When she resigned in 1990, 28% of the children in Great Britain were considered to be below the poverty line, a number that kept rising to reach a peak of 30% in 1994 during the Conservative government of John Major, who succeeded Thatcher.  While credited with reviving Britain's economy, Mrs. Thatcher also was blamed for spurring a doubling in the poverty rate. Britain's childhood-poverty rate in 1997 was the highest in Europe."

http://warincontext.org/2011/10/09/t...her-unleashed/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8041ES20120105
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:36 AM   #140
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

No, you remember her as the greatest PM. A lot of people, including me, consider it to be Clement Attlee.

Also the amount of people below the poverty line is a shocking stat and 'difficult decisions' are no justification, it's almost like she had only one way of handling business and there were no other methods or ways of softening the blows.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:48 AM   #141
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Hagiography =/= history. The idea that any leader should be praised for helping the economy of the country at the expense of the people in it is ridiculous.
Without an economy, you can't help anyone. Her reforms may have resulted in hardship, but they laid the foundation so that people such as yourselves have the luxury of being idealistic and aspirational.

Britain has Thatcher to thank that it isn't Greece right now - a country utterly destroyed and devoid of all hope.

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No, you remember her as the greatest PM. A lot of people, including me, consider it to be Clement Attlee.
Attlee would have been as useless as Wilson at dealing with the problems Thatcher was forced to confront.

Attlee has the luxury of being a Prime Minister who was required to do things that were popular. Thatcher was required to do things that were unpopular. Nonetheless she did them, and did them exceedingly well. Millions of Britons who have ultimately benefited from it continue to curse her, ignorant of how lucky they are.

She's basically Batman.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:54 AM   #142
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Without an economy, you can't help anyone. Britain has Thatcher to thank that it isn't Greece right now.


Attlee would have been as useless as Wilson at dealing with the problems Thatcher was forced to confront.

Attlee has the luxury of being a Prime Minister who was required to do things that were popular. Thatcher was required to do things that were unpopular. Nonetheless she did them, and did them exceedingly well. Millions of Britons who have ultimately benefited from it continue to curse her, ignorant of how lucky they are.

She's basically Batman.
You can't just 'assume' though- that's like saying what if Thatcher came to power in 1945, or if she came to power in 1997 when there actually was an economic boom- would she have done different things. Attlee's administration created the NHS and that will always be one of the greatest successes in UK history, and certainly something in his favour.

At the end of the day we're not gonna agree- you obviously have a lot of connections with the UK even if you are Australian (I think) but if you know all about Liverpool/Merseyside and what it was like under her, you would understand why she is loathed in these parts. Her and Geoffrey Howe discussed a 'managed decline' of the entire city before Michael Heseltine's intervention, and her establishment covered up the police's role in Hillsborough.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:02 AM   #143
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I admire both Attlee and Thatcher greatly but they are a study in contrasts. I doubt Thatcher would have had the ability to build consensus the way Attlee needed to post-WWII, but Attlee did not have anywhere near the gumption to take on the unions the way Thatcher did.

Personally I regard Thatcher as greater because I regard the greatest leaders as the ones with the courage to do what is right when everybody hates you. That is no indictment of Attlee however.

I believe history will regard Thatcher as the greater leader because she will end up having been the one Prime Minister who, for a short time, sparked a renaissance in British power and prosperity during the long, steady decline of its post-Empire period.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:12 AM   #144
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Why only two children? Why not four? Or seven?
Cry me a river. Textbook example of the leftist populism. What is always omitted in this sentimental story though is that in order to give money to this... hmmm... irresponsible mother of two the government first should take them from the other mothers with children, the ones who actually work. Pretty interesting perception of justice and equality.
Another interesting thing is that socialists always mix up consequences of free will and conscious choice (i.e. having children, working/not working) and consequences of the events over which a person has no control (i.e. being disabled).
I hope for your sake that your self-determination never runs into the realities of life over which you have no control - and I hope that if/when you need a helping hand, you will indeed be given one instead of someone reading you some inane and self-righteous spiel about free will and choice.
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:07 AM   #145
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

What I find most ironic in my country is the contrasting reactions of the right to the deaths of Hugo Chavez and Margaret Thatcher.

Because he was of the Left, the Right in this country felt entitled to say whatever the hell they wanted and accord no respect whatsoever. However, they demand that everyone pay respects to Thatcher and work up quite an outrage that some people might have the temerity to feel her legacy was an imperfect one.

As I said on Twitter last night - what many on the Right want is not respect for Thatcher but for the Left to say that she was right and they were wrong. They want surrender. They can dream on. Thatcher won the battle in her time, she did not win the war over those who wish to create a fairer society.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:02 AM   #146
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

I believe most people object to the highly personal insults, characterised by vile misogyny, that has come out in the criticism of Thatcher.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:03 AM   #147
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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I believe most people object to the highly personal insults, characterised by vile misogyny, that has come out in the criticism of Thatcher.
Well I don't think there's ever a need for that, no matter who the subject is.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:10 AM   #148
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

Just read an article by the creator of "Yes, Minister." He said he decided it was time to vote for Thatcher when 6 airport workers were sacked for stealing from passengers' suitcases and the Transport and General Workers Union called a national strike claiming that stealing from suitcases was simply a perk of the job.
And that is why Britain was the sick man of Europe and why Thatcher had to smash the Unions to put the Great back in Britain.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:21 AM   #149
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At the end of the day we're not gonna agree- you obviously have a lot of connections with the UK even if you are Australian (I think) but if you know all about Liverpool/Merseyside and what it was like under her, you would understand why she is loathed in these parts.
Liverpool was an important port when shipping headed into the Atlantic. When Britain turned to Europe, Liverpool's fate was sealed. Decline was inevitable.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:25 AM   #150
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Default Re: Maggie Thatcher died today

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Just read an article by the creator of "Yes, Minister." He said he decided it was time to vote for Thatcher when 6 airport workers were sacked for stealing from passengers' suitcases and the Transport and General Workers Union called a national strike claiming that stealing from suitcases was simply a perk of the job.
And that is why Britain was the sick man of Europe and why Thatcher had to smash the Unions to put the Great back in Britain.
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