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Old 05-01-2013, 12:11 PM   #2266
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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From my limited experience with this town and the people who live here, it's harder for people to kick alcohol addiction than to kick hard drugs. Sad really for them and their families. The death rates are horrible. By automobile, suicide, overdose, liver failure.
Yup, there is usually a huge social stigma connected with doing drugs. Very often none whatsoever when someone is drinking. On the contrary, often drinking is even encouraged - in Serbia for example, if you are not drinking, you're a weirdo, you don't know how to have fun etc.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:19 PM   #2267
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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Originally Posted by Katkexxx View Post
Alcohol is legal, which I think is what sepparates it from many other substances. So if someone has an addiction to alcohol it's easier for them to get to it (you can buy it anywhere, people serve it at dinner parties, you can have unlimited amounts stashed at home and no one will do anything) and it's also a lot more common as we are all surrounded by it from early childhood.
I don't know exactly how to describe my point, so I will just say that it's (even more) difficult to convince someone/yourself that: they have an addiction, alcohol is harming them and they should ask for help, because they have no reason to actually admit that what they are doing is not acceptable within the family/society. Perhaps I generalized too much, but my uncle would definitely frequently ask such questions (why should i not drink if I am allowed to by law)

Have you read A million little pieces by James Frey? There was a controversy about this book, but I really liked it. (it's about both alcohol and hard drug addiction)
I think that the legality plays a role, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. In this country, we tried to make alcohol illegal. That wasn't because of some sort of hyper-morality as some like to think. Alcohol was a growing problem in this country throughout the 1800s. It resulted in tremendous problems for women and children in particular. Prohibition seemed to be an answer. It wasn't what was needed and finally it was repealed. I do think that out of that struggle, came a different perspective about alcohol and the regulation of alcohol sales etc. Modern medicine has really helped as well because in the 1800s most medicines were opiate and/or alcohol based.

I've heard this "alcohol is legal and I'm an adult blah blah blah" over and over again from addicted people. I have to work to keep a straight face and not roll my eyes when I hear it. It's so childish, but it's the addiction talking. Addicts will say or do anything to protect their addiction. Thinking errors abound. I try to remember that as annoying as lying is, the person an addict really lies to is himself.

Education and peer pressure are probably the most effective tools until pharmaceutical solutions are found and I'm convinced that short circuiting the addictive brain is the ultimate solution. Education and peer pressure have been very effective with curbing cigarette smoking in this country. Nicotine is an incredibly insidious drug that is difficult to kick, yet we've had a decrease in smoking here. I think even people who smoke don't like to go into areas with cigarette smoking. Of course there's no smoking by law in public places, but I wandered into a vietnamese coffee shop while waiting for a violin recital one day and everyone was smoking. I thought -- omygod, this is how every place used to smell back in the day. It reminded me of how much things had progressed.

Honestly, I feel sorry for every family who has to deal with an addicted family member. It's not easy, and people who think you just turn your back on them, haven't really experienced the practical difficulties with that approach.

The James Frey book has some good things, but the problem is there are some patent falsehoods in the book and therefore it's hard to know what is true or not true. I think a better book is "Night of the Gun" Look into it. It's written by a journalist for the New York Times who decided to research his drug addicted past (and it was horrible) as he would a story for the newspaper. His research contradicted his memory in so many important ways. It also made him realize that events could not have transpired the way he remembered. Memory is not that great for most of us and it's much much worse in a drug addict. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/bo...anted=all&_r=0

But, you know -- even here in this small town, illegal drugs are very easy to get. Every drug addict (past or present) sees signs for drug sales just as clearly as the rest of us see signs for Burger King or Walmart.

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Yup, there is usually a huge social stigma connected with doing drugs. Very often none whatsoever when someone is drinking. On the contrary, often drinking is even encouraged - in Serbia for example, if you are not drinking, you're a weirdo, you don't know how to have fun etc.
Yeah. That's very hard to resist and particularly for young people. It gets easier to withstand peer pressure as we get older, but no one is immune. I suppose even I would knock back some shots if I were in Serbia.

Problem is that sometimes you don't even know you are susceptible to alcohol addiction until it's too late. I have talked to people who were addicted almost from the first drink. It's so hard for me to imagine what it was that they found in alcohol. One lawyer who nearly lost his profession through drinking, told me that he had his first drink at age 16 and from that time on alcohol was the primary thing in his life. While for me, I had to learn how to drink and develop a taste for alcohol. This is what interests me. Why is one person like me and another person like this guy who was in love with this substance immediately?

I think it's easy for those of us who can easily imbibe or forgo imbibing to sneer at the addicted, but it's more difficult and complicated and obviously they are getting something out of this drug that I don't get. I don't get the same euphoria out of marijuana or opiates either. I'm fortunate. But what is it? That's what I want to know.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:59 PM   #2268
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

Thanks for taking the time to write this; we won't solve anything, but I think it's an interesting topic

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I think that the legality plays a role, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. In this country, we tried to make alcohol illegal. That wasn't because of some sort of hyper-morality as some like to think. Alcohol was a growing problem in this country throughout the 1800s. It resulted in tremendous problems for women and children in particular. Prohibition seemed to be an answer. It wasn't what was needed and finally it was repealed. I do think that out of that struggle, came a different perspective about alcohol and the regulation of alcohol sales etc. Modern medicine has really helped as well because in the 1800s most medicines were opiate and/or alcohol based.
I definitely agree that prohibition would do more damage than good, so my idea wasn't that less people would drink if alcohol would be banned. It would perhaps give people one excuse less, but o the other hand hiding and denying one's addiction is the worst. Forbidden fruit tastes even sweeter and that would have massive consequences on individuals as well as an entire industry, horeca etc. The problem is - alcohol became such a big part of societies and it's been like that for thousands of years (first prohibition was apparently in 3rd millenium BC) it would probably take just as much time to solve the issue. It's difficult for me to understand that the situation now is a lot better than it was in other periods in history.


Quote:
Education and peer pressure are probably the most effective tools until pharmaceutical solutions are found and I'm convinced that short circuiting the addictive brain is the ultimate solution. Education and peer pressure have been very effective with curbing cigarette smoking in this country. Nicotine is an incredibly insidious drug that is difficult to kick, yet we've had a decrease in smoking here. I think even people who smoke don't like to go into areas with cigarette smoking. Of course there's no smoking by law in public places, but I wandered into a vietnamese coffee shop while waiting for a violin recital one day and everyone was smoking. I thought -- omygod, this is how every place used to smell back in the day. It reminded me of how much things had progressed.
As far as "education can help" goes: informing children from the young age is crucial; parents and family members are a huge influence, but that HAS to be done in the first few grades. We had coutless of different lectures on this topic (from addicts, criminalists, parents, teachers, youth activists) but they all go the same way - blahblah eyeroll yeahright whatever. I like them but it doesn't work anymore, it's just a lesson-free period *
Peer pressure is something I didn't understand from your post, sorry did you mean that if it stops being cool to drink, less young people would start? That's probably true


Quote:
The James Frey book has some good things, but the problem is there are some patent falsehoods in the book and therefore it's hard to know what is true or not true. I think a better book is "Night of the Gun" Look into it. It's written by a journalist for the New York Times who decided to research his drug addicted past (and it was horrible) as he would a story for the newspaper. His research contradicted his memory in so many important ways. It also made him realize that events could not have transpired the way he remembered. Memory is not that great for most of us and it's much much worse in a drug addict. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/bo...anted=all&_r=0
I will try to find this book to read over the summer. Addiction related books always interested me and this one sounds like the opposite of little pieces (Frey wrote from his memory and probably a lot of it was shady, while this journalist did proper research). Thanks for recommending it

Quote:
But, you know -- even here in this small town, illegal drugs are very easy to get. Every drug addict (past or present) sees signs for drug sales just as clearly as the rest of us see signs for Burger King or Walmart.
It's sad, yeah. Just another argument, which contradicts my statement that making alcohol illegal would help in ANYway *


Quote:
Problem is that sometimes you don't even know you are susceptible to alcohol addiction until it's too late. I have talked to people who were addicted almost from the first drink. It's so hard for me to imagine what it was that they found in alcohol. One lawyer who nearly lost his profession through drinking, told me that he had his first drink at age 16 and from that time on alcohol was the primary thing in his life. While for me, I had to learn how to drink and develop a taste for alcohol. This is what interests me. Why is one person like me and another person like this guy who was in love with this substance immediately?

I think it's easy for those of us who can easily imbibe or forgo imbibing to sneer at the addicted, but it's more difficult and complicated and obviously they are getting something out of this drug that I don't get. I don't get the same euphoria out of marijuana or opiates either. I'm fortunate. But what is it? That's what I want to know.
Is it possible that it is genetic?

On a positive note, did anyone do something special today? We had a picnic
Sorry for such a long post with soo many mistakes and soo many quotes
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:26 PM   #2269
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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While for me, I had to learn how to drink and develop a taste for alcohol. This is what interests me. Why is one person like me and another person like this guy who was in love with this substance immediately?

I think it's easy for those of us who can easily imbibe or forgo imbibing to sneer at the addicted, but it's more difficult and complicated and obviously they are getting something out of this drug that I don't get. I don't get the same euphoria out of marijuana or opiates either. I'm fortunate. But what is it? That's what I want to know.
Yea, that one is not easy to answer. I think most of the alcoholics drink simply to get wasted, not because the taste is great. Don't think many are getting drunk on 1978 Chardonnay, more like on Vodka, Tequila, cheap beer and so on. Vodka is hugely popular everywhere, and it's ethanol diluted with water, what kind of taste is that? Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible to enjoy the taste, but I bet if somebody invented non-alcoholic vodka or tequila, nobody would touch the stuff
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:14 PM   #2270
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

Alcohol can be insidious because at first it can be used to "take the edge off." And it really does do that well. I don't think most alchies drink to pass out, or become obnoxious as the stereotypical wino, as if that's the main goal, instead, it's for the mental-physical affects. But as Star mentioned, tolerance becomes an issue, and more is needed for the same results. I know several high functioning alchies who are professionals and you would never guess they have a problem. They excuse themselves for a few hours and have at it. It's a peculiar thing to see a 50kg woman polish off a bottle of red wine in a couple of hours, every single night.
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And, Roger Federer ranks 5th. But any problem cannot be found? is there nothing?  

Because, Djokovic, Murray, and Nadal certainly win Roger?

Even David Ferrer? (Roger 14 - 0 David)

Or, Roger loses even before QF? lol

argument.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:07 PM   #2271
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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Alcohol can be insidious because at first it can be used to "take the edge off." And it really does do that well. I don't think most alchies drink to pass out, or become obnoxious as the stereotypical wino, as if that's the main goal, instead, it's for the mental-physical affects. But as Star mentioned, tolerance becomes an issue, and more is needed for the same results. I know several high functioning alchies who are professionals and you would never guess they have a problem. They excuse themselves for a few hours and have at it. It's a peculiar thing to see a 50kg woman polish off a bottle of red wine in a couple of hours, every single night.
Those high functioning alcoholics are scary. Also the amounts of alcohol that they put away in a short period of time is amazing. Also so bad for the health.

But someone who drinks heavily every single day has to drink just so they don't start wicrawal. That's an ugly thing.

God -- we need Madrid to start! Or maybe I will start drinking.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:19 PM   #2272
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

Stories from my Google News.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013...marketing-kids

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22376860

I think this will be one of my new mottos: "Just one of those crazy accidents."

Last edited by star : 05-01-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:03 AM   #2273
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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Those high functioning alcoholics are scary. Also the amounts of alcohol that they put away in a short period of time is amazing. Also so bad for the health.

But someone who drinks heavily every single day has to drink just so they don't start wicrawal. That's an ugly thing.

God -- we need Madrid to start! Or maybe I will start drinking.
I miss your "we are not amused" kitty. Maybe grumpy kitty would benefit from a little brandy in its drinking bowl.

Moew indeed!

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Originally Posted by sportstennis View Post
And, Roger Federer ranks 5th. But any problem cannot be found? is there nothing?  

Because, Djokovic, Murray, and Nadal certainly win Roger?

Even David Ferrer? (Roger 14 - 0 David)

Or, Roger loses even before QF? lol

argument.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:50 AM   #2274
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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I miss your "we are not amused" kitty. Maybe grumpy kitty would benefit from a little brandy in its drinking bowl.

Moew indeed!

I like that kitty!

I see grumpy kitty every day all day, and anyway, I think she's more cute than grumpy although I can't deny she's unpredictably violent.

Anyway, I have to show my Rafa loyalty. Players, like kitties, get more precious as their days are numbered. Hard to believe Rafa is 27 very soon. That's the downside of a tennis career for most.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:50 AM   #2275
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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So you can't blame you getting banned on being drunk

waiting for you to come back
I'm back
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And, Roger Federer ranks 5th.

But any problem cannot be found?

argument.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #2276
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

Queima das Fitas starts today so you know the drill... will be away for a few days and with a basal (but safe) alcohol level.

It's fado night, stary! (Remember it always starts this way )

Email me or text me if I am needed. Nole better BEHAVE!!
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #2277
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

While I do not have the time to properly respond to what has been written here on the last few pages, I can say that I have found this discussion on alcohol very interesting to read. I hope everyone is well
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:01 PM   #2278
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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Queima das Fitas starts today so you know the drill... will be away for a few days and with a basal (but safe) alcohol level.

It's fado night, stary! (Remember it always starts this way )

Email me or text me if I am needed. Nole better BEHAVE!!
I miss you leg

Enjoy Queima das Fitas, and get very drunk .
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And, Roger Federer ranks 5th.

But any problem cannot be found?

argument.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:34 PM   #2279
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

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Queima das Fitas starts today so you know the drill... will be away for a few days and with a basal (but safe) alcohol level.

It's fado night, stary! (Remember it always starts this way )

Email me or text me if I am needed. Nole better BEHAVE!!

Fado night

Cry some tears for me, pls, while wearing that capa negra de saudade.



I always pick Juridico over Medico.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:52 PM   #2280
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Default Re: Titiless Nole Chat Part 4

Ok, I'll do Medico too.

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