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Old 03-28-2013, 08:32 PM   #91
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
The point is you don't know the poster you are throwing your "joke" has Asperger or not. Or the person is suffering from something else that make them vulnerable.

Also, do you understand and has researched on Asperger before your reply? Because I have doubt from your first statement I quote.
I think the original post you objected to said that "some thin skinned people can't accept what some mug says in the forum".

The bit about "throwing your joke at", seems to have been introduced by you. All I thought about was an example like saying, " my sympathies lie with the Israelis." And in that case, if the person is suffering from anti-Semitism and is upset by my statement, well, too bad.

So I am not sure what you are getting at. I don't make personal remarks in my posts, I might mock the content of a post a person makes. So maybe none of this concerns me.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:33 PM   #92
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
I have been active on many internet forums since the late 90s, and I am yet to find a more horrendously moderated forum than this one. Despotic, arbitrary, condescending, immature... you name it.

That's all I have to say.
That is probably more than enough!
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:46 PM   #93
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

I called someone an idiot and get a warning, people use racist terms and accuse players of doping and get nothing.

It's a bizarre system on here. It's run like a dictatorship.

Hitler would be proud.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:49 PM   #94
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
I called someone an idiot and get a warning, people use racist terms and accuse players of doping and get nothing.

It's a bizarre system on here. It's run like a dictatorship.

Hitler would be proud.
What an unfair and baseless blanket accusation. I personally know of posters who have been banned for using racist slurs (whether fairly or not). If you find something offensive, just report it. The mods don't and can't read every single post in the forum.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:52 PM   #95
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
What an unfair and baseless blanket accusation. I personally know of posters who have been banned for using racist slurs (whether fairly or not). If you find something offensive, just report it. The mods don't and can't read every single post in the forum.
Basless? I saw someone use a racist term and the post was deleted, he then did it AGAIN and all that happened was the post was deleted.

Why would I make that up? Engage your brain and think before posting.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:03 PM   #96
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

I would have no problem with the removal of permabans (or the severe restriction of them to things like harassment/threats, spam, etc). I think long bans like 6 months-2 years provide almost the same thing for the forum.

Anyone who has already served a long ban (let's say 1 year) would already be watched more carefully than other posters. It's the same in real life with criminal records and people on probation.

Some say "what's the point if the offender didn't learn anything from his long ban and came back and did the same thing?" But I don't think the point of MTF & its rules is to rehabilitate the offender. Banned for a year and within 3 weeks of returning you commit another offence for which you can be banned for a year? Then so be it; gone for another year. Two years is a long time for this forum to be free of someone's nasty behaviour.

The offences in this place are words, not dead bodies or stab wounds or a million dollars worth of burned down property, so I don't think it's actually a big deal to give the offender another chance like it is in real life with criminals.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:06 PM   #97
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Fact is bans are clearly disproportionate to the perceived crime as it stands.

You get 30 days for wishing injury on a player, but it takes two personal attack infractions to get a 5 day (as I understand it).

What's worse? Saying that you wish a player (who is never likely to see your comment) suffers a career threatening injury, or calling a fellow poster a 'fucking ****'?

Fairly obvious to me.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:44 PM   #98
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by SloKid View Post
First off each case gets reviewed individually, particularly when it's a permaban. In Mikey's case there was a discussion and a vote. I know that it's only after a ban, but the posters do have the ability to email us with their thoughts and reasoning, it may not always been in place, but it is there now.

I don't really know how you expect a discussion to work on this forum to be honest. MTF is very cliquey as it is and I don't believe the discussion would result in anything even resembling something constructive. Posters will support their (always unjustly) banned favourites, while some will claim the person is a troll anyway and deserved what he was getting.

ACC has always been a highly controversial subject, always causing a lot of problems, people arguing, insults being thrown around, posts reported, people asking for it to be cancelled. And over the years we first tried to be stricter in enforcing the rules during the contest, but when not much progress was made, we decided it was for the best to remove it as a whole. I can guarantee that the contest does not have the support of 80% of the posters and that's also not the case with a lot of the objections. It's an impression you can get, cause of the nature of the protests, but that's misleading I believe. We get people PMing or repping us in support, when they don't feel like posting their support in public in order not to get attacked by the people against the decisions. That's just how it is.

Look, I've said it before and it has been established that if anything the longer the poster is here, the more it takes for him to get a permaban. What would've a discussion about Mikey changed, when he's been banned and warned tons of times and knew that he was on his final warning, which he has stated himself. I think his total suspensions have been of more than 2 years, I mean how long should mods keep turning a blind eye just cause someone has been here for so long and has so many friends, when the person themselves don't accept responsibility and don't change their approach.
Again, you're missing the point. The reason mods are 'disrespected' is not the decisions per se, but the fact that said big decisions are taken unilaterally. Yes, there was discussion between the mods, I'm sure, but were MTFers heard? Was CF given a chance to defend himself? No. You need to understand that in a forum like this one a permaban is a big decision, especially when the poster in question has so many posts and has made so many friends on MTF. Being a big decision, one that has a great effect in the community as a whole, it should never be taken unilaterally and of course it should never be take a blind application of the rules as the be and end all. The same applies to the ACC, a contest a lot of people here love and which is user-organized. No one is asking the mods to turn a blind eye on infractions or anything, just to take a different approach.

I call BS on the assertion that it's impossible to get constructive discussion on MTF. See this very thread or the CF ban thread, there's a lot of people just mad their friend was banned, some happy a poster they don't like was banned, but there are a lot of good points as well, which is what would happen if permabans were put to discussion. Yes, I know that filtering through the nonsense and focusing on what's important in said thread does require some patience and some time as well, but that's what moderators are for, that's why we are supposed to have intelligent moderators capable of empathy and critical thinking. If you really think the rules are the rules and must be applied blindly, you must have really low self esteem to carry out a task that a bot could be programmed to do with the same level of efficiency (actually higher).

I do not own this forum, neither do the rest of the people voicing their concerns in this thread. If the site owners and moderators feel that mods taking big decisions unilaterally and all sort of dialogue being avoided is the way to go, well it's their forum. But it's quite hypocritical to expect any respect in return and they will never get it. All the flak you guys get is warranted and then some, I know that if, in real life, I lived in a country where decisions are taken using the same logic MTF moderators apply, I'd most definitely not respect those in charge. I concede that it might be a general system flaw rather than a particular moderator's fault, but there you have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloKid;14359481[B
]Why is it good? I think you're missing the point. In large part when it comes to bans, people don't disagree with the ban reason, but with the banning of their friend. It's like I don't care what he did or said to someone else and how they took it, I like him, he's been here for ages, you can't ban him. How's that fair and good for the forum? That's the wrong kind of democracy.[/b]

Only rules that applied blindly are rules that don't leave any doubt, like starting result threads before the match is over. Otherwise I don't think that's really the case.

I have no problem with hearing arguments, but they are few and far between and drowned out by all the bashing of a decision just because it happened to someone or something you like.
Are you telling me that everyone voicing their views about Feldman's ban matches that description? Complete BS. Not to mention that, want it or not, a fact that a poster is very popular in the community is a factor that should be taken into account - no I'm not saying popularity should make a poster immune to being banned, but it should be taken into account. After all, the goal of the moderating stuff is to improve the forum experinece for everyone, not banning people for the sake of it I'm assuming.

And sure, you have no problem hearing arguments now, but you should have been hearing them before the decision was made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMarquess View Post
No "dura lex sed lex" ? It's very redundant to take everything into consideration.
No. The premise of every rule system is that we should treat equally what is equal and different what is different - anything apart from that leads to injustice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
That is not how moderation works, unfortunately for you. The objective is to make the forum experience pleasant for as many as possible, trying to do it in an objective way as possible. To achieve this, they remove posts that could be deemed offensive by a number of posters. When a poster is deemed to have offered a certain number of these offensive posts or actions, they are banned. The one thing that should not be done is being lenient on a certain member because they are liked by everyone, or anything similar to that. This isn't a democracy.

Let me make it simple though. You commit an offence, you are punished appropriately. There are no ifs and buts because if a certain poster's social standing, to an extent.
It is. Simply put, MTF is not a moderated forum at all. There's a set system of infractions and punishments set in motion, only with figurehead humans (known around here as moderaters) instead of an automatic software to detect them and enforce them. That's not what moderation is, moderation is not a mindless, robotic task.

The introduction of the actual moderator role would be very beneficial for the forum though, surely a step forward towards improving the quality of the discussion and everyone's experience. Is handing out infractions like candy and banning posters improving people's forum experience as you put it? No. And here's a spoiler: it never, ever will.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:51 PM   #99
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
I think you're an excellent poster, and I don't remember disagreeing before, but what you wrote here is utterly wrong. You want people to be given a chance to change, yet you think 15 times is cruel? How many chances should they get? 150?

I've been a member on a number of forums in the last 10 years, even been a mod on few of them. All I can say the moderation here is amazingly relaxed, and the shit people can get away with is sometimes mind-boggling. It took years of hard-core trolling before some of the worst trolls on the board were finally removed. If anything mods should be stricter sometimes, not more lenient. All those who were permabanned deserved it 5 times over.
I don't know what forums have you moderated but speaking of tennis forums, you should go sometimes to Tennis Warehouse (Second to MTF arguably) and see what relaxed moderation really looks like.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:06 PM   #100
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
Wishing death rule should be removed, easily dumbest rule of the forum. So what if someone wishes death? It's not like its going to happen anyway.


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Excellent post. An absurd rule. Anyone who believes that have death wished on them actually increases their chances at death probably deserves to be removed from the gene pool.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:18 PM   #101
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Do you offer any evidence to support your accusation?
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:30 PM   #102
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by janko05 View Post
I don't know what forums have you moderated but speaking of tennis forums, you should go sometimes to Tennis Warehouse (Second to MTF arguably) and see what relaxed moderation really looks like.
I've been a mod on a couple of Serbian IT forums in the past. Also one or two english-speaking gaming forums. And I'm reading TW time to time (tried to register even, but spam filter rejected me ). Anyway, nothing special there, still prefer this place
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:41 PM   #103
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Which ones are those? Propose your view instead of casting a post without much information. If you have a POV, let us know.
Wishing Death, Injury, Doping allegations and Trolling are pointless.

If you wish death/injury to someone, it's not going to happen or increase the probability of it. The Doping allegations are just allegations and I don't see a problem with it. And the Trolling thing is subjective. You can't really say if someone is trolling or not.

Needless to say, some users have been banned for some of these infractions because of ridiculous reasons. Let's say you agree with the "Wishing Death" rule, people who actually wish death to someone aren't only banned because of it, if you write a post that includes the word "kill" or "death" you're banned (obviously and exaggeration but you get the point).
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:53 PM   #104
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

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Old 03-28-2013, 11:23 PM   #105
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

As Jelena said in the Feldman thread (and I think she's totally right here).
The "Perma"-ban situations should be reviewed and approved by EVERY moderator of the forum.
Each one of them should give his/her opinion there. It's the least the "banned" user deserves, it'd be a little more fair, just because there's no way back of there.
As she said before, this is like an execution.

It could be something like a "Ban-reviewing-period" where the user can't post as if he was banned.

I agree with her and I support this idea heartly.
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