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Old 03-28-2013, 12:43 PM   #1
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Default Change of banning rules debate

I think a debate is in order as fallout of recent permabans and talks about abolishing permabans.

I have proposed the following be applied for red card sanctions and elimination of permabans completely. A 12 red card ban for repeated racist comments would be 6 years long for instance, but it will still be free of the definitive that is the word permanent. These rules would also punish infractions in a severe way and will not have users escape punishment when violating site rules.

Code:
Offense                        1st red        Each new red        
Extreme racist remarks	       6 months       +6 months
Discriminatory remarks         3 months       +3 months
Wishing injury                 2 months       +2 months
Wishing death                  3 months       +2 months
Uttering threats               2 months       +1 month
Multiple accounts              3 months       +2 months
Harassment                     3 weeks        +2 weeks
Violation of privacy           1 month        +1 month
Moderator bashing              10 days        +10 days
Porn/Inappropriate images      10 days        +10 days
Signature rule violation       4 days         +3 days
Editing a mod's changes        1 week         +1 week
Posting for banned member      1 week         +1 week
Personal attack                -              +5 days
Inappropriate language         -              +5 days
Forum disruptions              -              +1 day
Baiting                        -              +1 day
Trolling                       -              +1 day
Doping Allegetions             -              +1 day
Match Fixing Allegations       -              +1 day
Everyone interested in change for this forum and elimination of the "hunted" feeling usually created if a permaban rule exists, please contribute here and see if we can reach a common ground. After which, we can poll the result to see if the board agrees.

Last edited by Slasher1985 : 03-28-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Great idea and great initiative this.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Everyone interested in change for this forum and elimination of the "hunted" feeling usually created if a permaban rule exists, please contribute here and see if we can reach a common ground.
Interesting that it's always one and the same group of people that feels hunted, I wonder why is that
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Interesting that it's always one and the same group of people that feels hunted, I wonder why is that
I do feel hunted despite the fact that I have never broken any rule on this forum. I feel that if tomorrow, Mods would decide that they wanna silence me, they will decide that anything I post is either racist or an insult to someone. It doesn't take much to do so. After that it's easy, because they can feed on my anger and goad me into making more infractions. And I know this is not correct, but I feel it. It's a feeling that this rule causes.

Last edited by Slasher1985 : 03-28-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Agreed. I think Permanent ban should be eliminated for all but the most extreme cases.

But I think we may need some help from one of the mods or Admins on what is possible to do with the software in place.
For example, it might not allow a incrementing penalty system that you have described.
Perhaps it doesn't even allow for a max ban length after reaching x number of violations.

So I guess we have to know what is possible before coming up with a specific scheme.
My position is that we don't want to make their system any more cumbersome than they already are.
The unpaid mods/admins are just trying to do their job according to the rules.

I think if our proposal is reasonable and can be done without much more effort than it is now, it has a chance.
If it can be automated using their existing software, so much the better.

So just going through the steps:
My assumption is that there is a database where all the user/infraction info is stored.
Then there must be software the integrates with that database.
Here are some points/questions I have:

1. A user makes an inappropriate post that is either reported or noticed by a mod/admin.
2. This post is flagged as being in violation for a certain rule.
3. A team of mods/admins decide whether it actually is a violation. If confirmed, the text in the post gets replaced with the rule violation. Is this automated?
4. A team of mods/admins decides what the appropriate penalty should be based on the history of the poster. How much of this is already automated?
5. The number of offenses of the particular violation is incremented, and the appropriate penalty is assigned. How is this done? Manually, or is it automated? Is there a way of setting the penalty time for each successive violation based on a formula, or is there only a manual setting available? What are the limits of the software?
6. Does the infraction and penalty assignment automatically get sent to the offending poster with a warning of the next occurrence of the violation?

Can a admin/mod with experience in the software assist in answering these questions? It would be helpful to know what is being done manually, and what can be done in a more automated fashion with the existing sofware.
Thanks.

Respectfully,
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

It's still a subjective list, though.

What's trolling for example?
What's just a point of view for one person is trolling for the next. What's a joke for one person is troling for another person.

What would qualify as an extreme racist remark and why make the difference between a racist remark and an extreme racist and who is going to decide which is which?

Uttering threats? What sort of threat are you talking about?

---

If you want people to have a clear opinion, you have to define the various categories more precisely because this suggestion is a bit on the vague side and open to discussion.

Furthermore, I think that a discussion of the forum rules need to be made when people aren't emotional about the permaban of a popular ex-poster.
If I see people compare a permaban on one forum on the entire internet with the death penatly, it gives me the impression that they're being too emotional about it because that's exaggerated.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
I do feel hunted despite the fact that I have never broken any rule on this forum. I feel that if tomorrow, Mods would decide that they wanna silence me, they will decide that anything I post is either racist or an insult to someone. It doesn't take much to do so. After that it's easy, because they can feed on my anger and goad me into making more infractions. And I know this is not correct, but I feel it. It's a feeling that this rule causes.
With all due respect, that is absolute rubbish.

How exactly do you feel hunted? And if you ever end up getting infractions because of "your anger", then surely that's not the moderators' fault, is it? It's almost like you're already blaming the moderators and deflecting the blame for any future outbursts you have. I find that baffling.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:20 PM   #8
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
I do feel hunted despite the fact that I have never broken any rule on this forum.
I've been on MTF since 2005 and I've never received a warning/infraction/... and I'm far from the only one in that case


Quote:
I feel that if tomorrow, Mods would decide that they wanna silence me, they will decide that anything I post is either racist or an insult to someone
Sorry, but that's a touch paranoid.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
I do feel hunted despite the fact that I have never broken any rule on this forum. I feel that if tomorrow, Mods would decide that they wanna silence me, they will decide that anything I post is either racist or an insult to someone. It doesn't take much to do so. After that it's easy, because they can feed on my anger and goad me into making more infractions. And I know this is not correct, but I feel it. It's a feeling that this rule causes.
Your paranoia is entirely your own affair. Having worked with those people for a long time, I can tell you what you're saying is absolutely ludicrous.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloKid View Post
With all due respect, that is absolute rubbish.
Yes and no. Check the posts around this one:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/show...&postcount=181

So, I can be accused of racism because I mentioned a racist current in my country. That's a bannable offense and I should be thrown out immediately.

Well, yes, having them use their current software is ideal. Maybe applying the maximum penalty (I think it's 2 years) repeatedly, in case a ban becomes longer than that is enough.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:25 PM   #11
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Your paranoia is entirely your own affair. Having worked with those people for a long time, I can tell you what you're saying is absolutely ludicrous.
Oh no, my friend. It's not really paranoia. It's yet another example. I could count being accused of paranoia as a personal insult. That would be paranoia.

It's easy to divert from the original purpose of this debate. And that is to help this board. Now, if you wanna flame me or insult me, find another thread to do it.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Posting this here as well, because I feel it's important:

Everybody has the feeling that we want a rule change because CF was popular, or because CD was popular.

Everybody has the feeling that Mods are at fault.

None of this is correct. The rule change is not specifically for CF or CD. Mods can decide to keep them permabanned because their case was judged by the old rule. The goal here is to prevent new users from having the same fate, but with keeping the intolerance towards rule violations at the same level. Intolerance doesn't necessarily mean always applying permanent bans, or bans at all to be exact.

The goal should be to make the board feel like a welcoming community where the Moderators try to resolve disputes before casting punishment, where people are given a chance to change. Right now, I'm seeing this on the second post of the rules: "If I don't behave properly 15 times, I'm out. So, I must behave." Instead of "innocent until proven guilty", the board is telling me "guilty until proven innocent".
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
The goal should be to make the board feel like a welcoming community where the Moderators try to resolve disputes before casting punishment, where people are given a chance to change. Right now, I'm seeing this on the second post of the rules: "If I don't behave properly 15 times, I'm out. So, I must behave." Instead of "innocent until proven guilty", the board is telling me "guilty until proven innocent".
I think you're an excellent poster, and I don't remember disagreeing before, but what you wrote here is utterly wrong. You want people to be given a chance to change, yet you think 15 times is cruel? How many chances should they get? 150?

I've been a member on a number of forums in the last 10 years, even been a mod on few of them. All I can say the moderation here is amazingly relaxed, and the shit people can get away with is sometimes mind-boggling. It took years of hard-core trolling before some of the worst trolls on the board were finally removed. If anything mods should be stricter sometimes, not more lenient. All those who were permabanned deserved it 5 times over.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:59 PM   #14
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There should be no punishment for 'trolling' as its too easy to misinterpret IMO


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Old 03-28-2013, 02:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: Change of banning rules debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
There should be no punishment for 'trolling' as its too easy to misinterpret IMO


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Of course, you of all people wouldn't want any punishments for trolling....
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