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Old 03-15-2013, 12:43 PM   #61
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
There might be reasons to criticize the Church
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:48 PM   #62
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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I stand by what I said. At age 13, all you can know about politics is what your parents told you and you cannot judge him on what he did at that age (all my respect to your grandpa and his friends but it's not an argument). I'm a Jesuit and I believe you can always redeem yourself, certainly from the things you did at age 13.



If this is the kind of criticism that Catholic haters use today, it rather speaks volumes about their dishonesty. There might be reasons to criticize the Church but this is very low.

And mass media, the image question precisely are the problem. Why should we adapt to it? It's brainwashing...
Now we know...
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #63
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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Most people who detented any sort of power during the 70s have been denounced for something (and considering Bergoglio once publicly confrontated the president during the debate for same-sex marriage, it shouldn't come as a surprise). I'm not trying to say he's completely and irrevocably innocent and holy, but it's a common practice in the current government, especially targeting their opponents. I wouldn't read too much into it.
perhaps but the reports of his alleged involvement have came from many actors, including fellow priests. it's not just the government or the kirchner marriage.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:06 PM   #64
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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Dirty War Diaries: The Pope and Argentina's Dictatorship

Speechlessness was followed by cheers of joy. With a simple "buonasera," the newly elected Pope Francis greeted the faithful in Rome and cracked a joke about coming from the "ends of the earth." It was a rhetorical slam dunk met with jubilation by the audience. There was a similar celebratory atmosphere in his homeland of Argentina. Though not everyone was cheering.

"I can't believe it. I'm so distressed and full of anger that I don't know what to do," wrote the sister of deceased priest and torture victim Orlando Yorio in an e-mail to the journalist Horacio Berbitsky. "Now he's achieved what he wanted."

"He," for Graciela Yorio, refers to a power-hungry man who betrayed her brother and the Hungarian Jesuit Franz Jalics to Argentina's mililtary dictatorshop. A man who did nothing to stop the two faithful from being locked up in prison for five months and tortured. "He" is Pope Francis, then still known as Jorge Mario Bergoglio, provincial of the Argentine Jesuits.

The two liberation theologists were kidnapped on May 23, 1976 in a slum where they were doing ministry and social work. "Many people politically associated with the extreme right viewed our presence in the poor districts with suspicion," recalled Jalics later in his writings. "They interprested the fact that we lived there as support of the guerrillas, and they denounced us as terrorists."

The regime's henchmen brought the two Jesuits to the Escuela de Mecánica de la Armada (ESMA), a detention center notorious for torture. After five months they were thrown out onto a field half-naked and pumped full of drugs. The priests complained of Bergoglio to Superior General Pedro Arrupe in Rome. But they had already been expelled from the Jesuit order, allegedly due to contact with woman and "conflicts of obedience."

Accusations of Complicity in Kidnapping

Argentine human rights lawyer Marcelo Parrilli brought Bergoglio's case to the authorities, accusing him of implication in the kidnapping. That was in April 2005, shortly before the conclave that eventually chose Joseph Ratzinger to become Pope Benedict XVI. Bergoglio reportedly got the second most votes, but stepped aside in deference to Ratzinger.

A Jesuit spokesman called Parrilli's legal complaint slander. Bergoglio twice used his right to refuse to give evidence in court. When he testified in 2010, his comments were "evasive," according to human rights lawyer Myriam Bregman. In 2012, Argentine bishops collectively apologized for the mistakes of the church in the country's "Dirty War" in the 1970s and early 80s -- more than 30 years after the fact.

After their detainment, Yorio and Jalics were offered reinstatement into the Jesuit order. Jalics accepted, but Yorio did not.

Yorio never fully recovered from the traumatic experiences in prison. He died in 2000 in Uruguay. Franz Jalics survived the difficult times of torture with the help of meditation and constant prayer. He traveled to Germany in 1978, and later wrote a book about spiritual retreats. He declined to comment on the matter. "But he's at peace with Bergoglio," said Jesuit spokesman Thomas Busch. "A few years ago, Father Jalics traveled to Buenos Aires on the invitation of the archbishop, and they talked together." Nothing is known of their conversation.

A book Jalics wrote in 1995 tells a different story. He says prior to the kidnapping, he described his precarious situation to a superior, warning "that he's toying with our lives." He says the "man" promised to explain to the military that they weren't terrorists. However dozens of documents and statements of witnesses purportedly show that instead of defending the two priests, the same "man" only futher incriminated them. Yorio had related a similar story at the end of the 1970s. At the time, the "man" had a name: Bergoglio.

Some See Bergoglio as Saint, Others Fear Him

On Thursday, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Adolfo Pérez Esquivel defended the pope on BBC Mundo. "Bergoglio was not an accomplice to the dictatorship," he said. He did not, however, deny that the Church remained silent during the dictatorship and that "there were many bishops who were passive." Argentina's last military dictatorship before democracy governed from 1976 to 1983, waging a bloody war against its opponents. Estimates say the number of "desaparecidos," people who were disappeared during that time, is around 30,000. They were kidnapped, tortured and murdered.

Argentine investigative journalist Horacio Verbitsky, nickname "the dog," has written numerous essays and books about the important relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the military dictatorship. He published an interview with Yorio's siblings Graciela and Rodolfo in 2010.

According to that interview, Bergoglio said in a personal conversation that he relied completely on the military secret service to find a clarification of the problem and that they would be responsible for conducting interrogations of the prisoners. Bergoglio was said to have important ties to the authorities. He allegedly met with Admiral Emilio Massera, one of the leaders of the military junta. Bergoglio said he did so to advocate on behalf of the two Jesuit brothers. He said he had nothing to hide.

"I know people he helped," said Yorio's brother Rodolfo. "That's exactly what reveals his two faces, and his closeness to the military powers. He was a master at ambiguity." And he levels a bitter accusation: "When the army killed someone, (Bergoglio) was rid of him, when they saved someone, it was he who had saved them." That's why there are people who see him as a saint, Rodolfo said. "And why there are others who fear him."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-889061.html
spiegel is not exactly a mouthpiece for the left. quite the contrary
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:14 PM   #65
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

^^It is as expected. After all, after all predictions, he is the AntiChrist, the Pope that will see the end of the world.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:41 PM   #66
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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Maybe your IQ is already down.
I'm personally losing one point each time I'm reading Slasher's posts.

Thankfully, reading Rousseau's Social Contract, compensates.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:02 PM   #67
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

Can someone explane to me the Jesuit part?
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:05 PM   #68
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Part of what?
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:08 PM   #69
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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I'm personally losing one point each time I'm reading Slasher's posts.

Thankfully, reading Rousseau's Social Contract, compensates.
Explanation...?

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Can someone explane to me the Jesuit part?
What? What the Jesuits are? A Catholic order founded in 1534 by Ignatius of Loyola. They were the instrument popes used in the past to counter the protestant reform. But they also quickly specialized in living in extreme conditions anywhere in the world, promoting the development of education and social justice.

But doing so, they walked fine lines across time and were involved in multiple controversial historical stories, like assassinations of kings for instance and our traditional conspiracy theories which sustain that they actually secretly rule the world, or that they're behind the sinking of the Titanic. Most recent, you can read all about it in certain Dan Brown literature.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:16 PM   #70
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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Explanation...?



What? What the Jesuits are? A Catholic order founded in 1534 by Ignatius of Loyola. They were the instrument popes used in the past to counter the protestant reform. But they also quickly specialized in living in extreme conditions anywhere in the world, promoting the development of education and social justice.

But doing so, they walked fine lines across time and were involved in multiple controversial historical stories, like assassinations of kings for instance and our traditional conspiracy theories which sustain that they actually secretly rule the world, or that they're behind the sinking of the Titanic. Most recent, you can read all about it in certain Dan Brown literature.
What differentiates \ distinguishes them from other orders?
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:17 PM   #71
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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Part of what?
the jesuit part.
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"People were created to be loved
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The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

"יברכך ה' וישמרך,יאר ה' פניו אליך ויחונך,ישא ה' פניו אליך וישם לך שלום"
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:28 PM   #72
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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What differentiates \ distinguishes them from other orders?
Well, as I said in the previous posts, they're the order who promotes social justice, as in they would always speak about what is right and what is wrong in the world. Francis already proved this with his preaching during his first day, in which he mentioned that priests should walk the path of God. It's basically a Jesuit train of thought that there is always something wrong that must be righted in the image of Jesus Christ (hence the name).

The Franciscans are the main other order of the Catholics that one must compare with. Following the life of St Francis of Assisi, they promote charity and believe in living in poverty. This is characterized as "mendicant", meaning that they depend on charity as they own no worldly goods.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:32 PM   #73
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the Franciscans i know pretty well the jesuit i didnt, thanks for telling me
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:39 PM   #74
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Default Re: A New Pope is elected

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spiegel is not exactly a mouthpiece for the left. quite the contrary
Says who?

Der Spiegel is widely considered to have a centre-left leaning.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

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The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:41 PM   #75
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The order was created after the Council of Trent when some priests in America were shocked by how the Conquistadores treated the Natives. Hence they were the first humanist, promoting free education over the World (and generally speaking the emancipation of man), long before the Secularists.

They condemned the predestination doctrine promoted by the Jansenists in the 17th century (close to Calvinism).

By the 18th century, the Jansenists were powerful in the legal authority, while the Jesuits were still the Kings' confessors. The Jansenists allied with the Enlightenment/atheists in order to have the Jesuit order banned.


The two best literary works about the Jesuit order, in my opinion, The Power and the Glory by Graham Greene and the film I Confess by Hitch.

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Explanation...?
The things on this and the other posts, or that you quoted are things that I put in my dissertations when I was 14.
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