[buddyholly]

Originally Posted by abraxas21

a sad day for democracy.

i see a lot of brainwashed westerners here. can't say i'm surprised.

Rampant inflation, empty store shelves, an oil industry destroyed, soaring crime rates, control of the media for the purposes of propaganda, a self-styled dictator who believes in ghosts and magic spell and apparently thought he was the reincarnation of Bolivar.
That's socialism for ya. The classic kind.

[buddyholly]

Originally Posted by erickmartins

, they have the best income distribution in South America, farmers and fishers have guaranteed income when they retire.

Not quite as good as Cuba, where everyone gets about $20/month. I guess by your standards, zero income would be the ideal equalizer.
A retired Cuban has the luxury of being able to go to the store and use his entire monthly pension to buy about 8 coca-colas. So Venezuelan farmers won't go thirsty in their retirement, I guess.

I think a civil engineer in Venezuela earns about $8000/year. The black market rate is about 4 times the official rate, so that comes to about $2000/year. Is this the kind of income distribution you favour?

[Marto]

I think he made a good politic for Venezuela, people love him, because he did a lot for the country

[jrm]

tells a lot about people in Venezuela if they are sworn followers of Chavez

[rocketassist]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

Rampant inflation, empty store shelves, an oil industry destroyed, soaring crime rates, control of the media for the purposes of propaganda, a self-styled dictator who believes in ghosts and magic spell and apparently thought he was the reincarnation of Bolivar.
That's socialism for ya. The classic kind.

A dictator, behave

Free and fair elections. Fact.

[abraxas21]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

Not quite as good as Cuba, where everyone gets about $20/month. I guess by your standards, zero income would be the ideal equalizer.
A retired Cuban has the luxury of being able to go to the store and use his entire monthly pension to buy about 8 coca-colas. So Venezuelan farmers won't go thirsty in their retirement, I guess.

this thread is about chávez, deceased elected president of venezuela. can't help the urge to bring cuba into it, can you?

[abraxas21]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

Rampant inflation, empty store shelves, an oil industry destroyed, soaring crime rates, control of the media for the purposes of propaganda, a self-styled dictator who believes in ghosts and magic spell and apparently thought he was the reincarnation of Bolivar.
That's socialism for ya. The classic kind.

it wasn't perfect by any means but it was a nice change that a lot of south american nations should take note of.

chávez wasn't a dictator by any means. he was democratically elected by the people of his country and he held referendums over the most important policies of his nation. i also don't think of venezuela as a socialist nation of the classic kind. it certainly is more socialist than, say, its neighbour colombia but at the grand scheme of things venezuela's commerce is still heavily dependent of private transactions and private production.

[abraxas21]

Originally Posted by Marto

I think he made a good politic for Venezuela, people love him, because he did a lot for the country

yes but apparently, westerners around the world are so clever and omniscient that they know better what's good for the venezuelans than the venezuelans themselves, even though none of them have ever experienced the type of poverty that exists in a country like venezuela and have little to no clue of the past and present of the country.

these white people are smart

[Punky]

my fav Hugo moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYYQT21p7l8

[Lopez]

Originally Posted by abraxas21

yes but apparently, westerners around the world are so clever and omniscient that they know better what's good for the venezuelans than the venezuelans themselves, even though none of them have ever experienced the type of poverty that exists in a country like venezuela and have little to no clue of the past and present of the country.

these white people are smart

Well, a lot of Western countries have a lot better GDP/capita and well-being. Then again I'm not really familiar with Chavez' work or Venezuelan political history so I won't criticize him.

[buddyholly]

Originally Posted by abraxas21

this thread is about chávez, deceased elected president of venezuela. can't help the urge to bring cuba into it, can you?

How can I not bring Cuba into it? It is the "utopian ideal" that Chavez was trying to emulate. It would be totally illogical not to include an already existing model of the kind of society that Chavez was determined to introduce to Venezuela. By looking at Cuba, we can see the future of Venezuela as desired by Chavez.

You are just being nonsensical when you state that we westerners are too brainwashed not to want to live in a Cuban style police state of oppression, poverty and the denial of just about every human right imaginable.

No matter how much you may say that Venezuela is not Cuba, you can not deny that Chavez idolized Fidel and wanted Venezuela to be the same, with himself as El Comandante for life.

[MaxPower]

Not gonna judge Chavez. They could most certainly get someone better, but they could also get someone five times worse.

Roll the dice Venezuela

[ssin]

Chavez on Larry King back in 2009. I watched that at the time and I remember how I expected an evil mindless pompous clown and he came across more or less as a normal guy, (compare for example with Milosevic who also was on Larry and who really was a devious unsavory character) Chavez was a bit too talkative, but it's such culture. Let's hear a little bit what the man had to say while he was alive. (this is the first part of five)

[ssin]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

A retired Cuban has the luxury of being able to go to the store and use his entire monthly pension to buy about 8 coca-colas.

You have a point, but does a retired Cuban really need even one Coca-Cola?

I would say they need Coca Cola as much as they need hemorrhoids.

The same retired Cuban has the luxury of free health services though, which is great if you are a poor retired citizen of Cuba, don't you think? I heard Cuban doctors and dentists are not that bad, but I have never visited Cuba.

I am not protecting communism, I'm not even saying that you don't have a valid point, but Coca Cola?

[abraxas21]

Originally Posted by buddyholly

By looking at Cuba, we can see the future of Venezuela as desired by Chavez.

Chavez idolized Fidel and wanted Venezuela to be the same, with himself as El Comandante for life.

quotations needed.

no doubt chávez liked some elements of the cuban model but i don't remember chávez or his gvt ever claiming that they wanted venezuela to be another cuba. I might be wrong, though, but i really don't remember it. For one thing, the Cuban revolution of Castro, fast, noticeable and lasting, was nothing like the Bolivarian revolution of Chávez, which in reality can't be regarded as a true revolution in the first place. Like i suggested before, venezuela, even after 13 years of you call "chávez's classic socialism", is still a mixed economy.

if chávez had really wanted to follow the cuban model, i think it would have made sense for him to follow the cuban revolution, but he never did it.