Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof. Wada could test using hair) - Page 72 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: Does Tennis need more/stricter testing?

yes 279 84.04%
no 53 15.96%
Voters: 332. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-13-2013, 03:07 AM   #1066
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

I really like that this subject is finally coming to light and being explored. But I think we need to look into all possibilities with an open mind to find the best solutions. And not fall into the prejudiced illusion that allowed the fairy tale of drug free sports to have prevailed, to so many people, in the first place. The more I look into, the more I also feel that total prohibition of everything PED related is also naive and not necessarily better.

Professional athletes put far more stress in their bodies than any regular person does. If you look deeply into some common Peds substances let say HGH, EPO and testosterone. These substances, well administrated, and followed closely by professionals do not have many side effects and are not necessarily bad for one's health, do some research on them. Human growth Hormone is widely prescribed for people in certain conditions of growth deficiencies, EPO is also widely prescribed for people with low hemocrites levels, Testosterone is used in a variety of ways including Asthma medication, Birth control, cough medication etc.

Ok, people will say these they are prescribed for people with certain deficiencies or conditions, that they are not for use for regular "normal" people. Well, are athletes regular normal people though? I don't think so, I don't believe the way the use their bodies represents in a close way to any other person. I myself play tennis quite often and on a pretty good level since teens and I keep in good shape off the tennis courts as well. I can't play it on a good level for more than a few hours, I can't play for days in a row without feeling sour and great discomfort and I am talking about playing at most 2-3 hours a day. I am still feeling sore from having playing for almost 3 hours 2 days ago.

These guys need to practice 4-6 hours a day, plus off court work. They need to be prepared for matches that can last for 4 plus, recover for the next day and are screwed if the get seriously injured and this is on a weekly basis for a season of 10 months. And Tennis is not even among the most physical sport out there. The human body is not design to substain this, the human body can easily breakdown and this the tool for their professional living that they depend on. So I also think is close minded and prejudicial to think that these athletes should only use bread and water and ignore science developments that so clearly can help them train harder, recover better from injuries etc.

I am not saying that allowing everything is the best solution, but I do see some similarities with the recreational drug prohibition. Total prohibition just doesn't work, there is also no system of testing in sight that can truly detect everything efficiently not even cycling who is on the cutting edge and has battle this openly for years can claim this. There always will be people on it, by taking it out of the black market entirely, by giving players who don't want to lie and want to hide things and open and honest way to compete. There are several doctors who challenge the notion that steroids are really harmful specially used in moderate doses for certain objectives. Human growth hormone is quite used in the US, where a lot of middle age man in the 40-50 go to Doctor to get hormone replacement and use HGH to great effects. I know the argument that if you allow this people will search for more dangerous substances I am not so sure though.

If you look into it, it seems for that last few year and decande Peds basically surround around some main substances: Test, HGH, EPO, Blood doping, Insuline etc. All things are naturally produced and found in the body. Is more of a question of quantity.

I found this a very good debate to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hPFMDFacRA


Also this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApmX8Q0vqKI
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:35 AM   #1067
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Fishnet View Post
If he thinks tennis is a clean sport and goes on to actually declare that in an interview, then he's not taking it seriously.
typical of how many people consider politics on MTF (and unfortunately overall in our democracies ) : what's "really serious" in politics is not mediatic words, but ACTS.

Introducing the biological passport in tennis would be a major act.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:27 PM   #1068
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
I really like that this subject is finally coming to light and being explored. But I think we need to look into all possibilities with an open mind to find the best solutions. And not fall into the prejudiced illusion that allowed the fairy tale of drug free sports to have prevailed, to so many people, in the first place. The more I look into, the more I also feel that total prohibition of everything PED related is also naive and not necessarily better.

Professional athletes put far more stress in their bodies than any regular person does. If you look deeply into some common Peds substances let say HGH, EPO and testosterone. These substances, well administrated, and followed closely by professionals do not have many side effects and are not necessarily bad for one's health, do some research on them. Human growth Hormone is widely prescribed for people in certain conditions of growth deficiencies, EPO is also widely prescribed for people with low hemocrites levels, Testosterone is used in a variety of ways including Asthma medication, Birth control, cough medication etc.

Ok, people will say these they are prescribed for people with certain deficiencies or conditions, that they are not for use for regular "normal" people. Well, are athletes regular normal people though? I don't think so, I don't believe the way the use their bodies represents in a close way to any other person. I myself play tennis quite often and on a pretty good level since teens and I keep in good shape off the tennis courts as well. I can't play it on a good level for more than a few hours, I can't play for days in a row without feeling sour and great discomfort and I am talking about playing at most 2-3 hours a day. I am still feeling sore from having playing for almost 3 hours 2 days ago.

These guys need to practice 4-6 hours a day, plus off court work. They need to be prepared for matches that can last for 4 plus, recover for the next day and are screwed if the get seriously injured and this is on a weekly basis for a season of 10 months. And Tennis is not even among the most physical sport out there. The human body is not design to substain this, the human body can easily breakdown and this the tool for their professional living that they depend on. So I also think is close minded and prejudicial to think that these athletes should only use bread and water and ignore science developments that so clearly can help them train harder, recover better from injuries etc.

I am not saying that allowing everything is the best solution, but I do see some similarities with the recreational drug prohibition. Total prohibition just doesn't work, there is also no system of testing in sight that can truly detect everything efficiently not even cycling who is on the cutting edge and has battle this openly for years can claim this. There always will be people on it, by taking it out of the black market entirely, by giving players who don't want to lie and want to hide things and open and honest way to compete. There are several doctors who challenge the notion that steroids are really harmful specially used in moderate doses for certain objectives. Human growth hormone is quite used in the US, where a lot of middle age man in the 40-50 go to Doctor to get hormone replacement and use HGH to great effects. I know the argument that if you allow this people will search for more dangerous substances I am not so sure though.

If you look into it, it seems for that last few year and decande Peds basically surround around some main substances: Test, HGH, EPO, Blood doping, Insuline etc. All things are naturally produced and found in the body. Is more of a question of quantity.

I found this a very good debate to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hPFMDFacRA


Also this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApmX8Q0vqKI
I agree with most of the sentiments in this post. For a start, too much of the conversation prefers to ignore the physiological underpinnings of PEDs in favour of "doping" rhetoric. In a perfect world every athlete would be under the control of a common medical programme which optimised their physical condition for their given sport using whichever methods were available. The problem, however, is that such a programme would be impossibly expensive and complicated to administer. Think about how hard it is even to administer a ban on certain treatments. How much harder would it be to administer a controlled programme which individually monitored each athlete's health and performance without preference to any individual?
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:02 PM   #1069
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
I am not saying that allowing everything is the best solution, but I do see some similarities with the recreational drug prohibition.
there's a big difference with recreational drugs : nobody will get any recognition or reward for taking a recreational drug, it's not an activity which is valued by the society because it's associated with pleasure, not with performance. It's considered as a little bit shameful activity, even when the consumption is allowed (and I'm rather in favour of this allowance for drugs like marijuana). And there's an addiction problem, but at least people are aware that it's bad for themselves and their body to abuse those things.

My problem with allowing PEDs is clear and it's not only their danger for the health as you seem to think : as soon as you've decided that, and even if commercials are more or less forbidden, you will read everywhere plenty of articles praising the advantage of this or that PED for the common person, everybody will want to increase one's performances through this or that. Humans will be living pharmacies. I know that there's already an evolution this way, especially in the USA, and I'm not surprised that you seem to come from the USA saying that. But I don't think it's a good direction for the world and human beings in general.

High-level sportsmen are models for people : if they use this or that, other people will want to use this or that.

As for the rest of your message, the notion that not everything can be forbidden ... is very well-known by the anti-doping authorities, they have debates and rules about it, there's no ignorance problem about that from the anti-doping authorities.

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Originally Posted by ogbg View Post
How much harder would it be to administer a controlled programme which individually monitored each athlete's health and performance without preference to any individual?
Biologists are able to see anormal deviations from an athlete's standards, that's the main interest of the biological passport.

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
These guys need to practice 4-6 hours a day, plus off court work. They need to be prepared for matches that can last for 4 plus, recover for the next day and are screwed if the get seriously injured and this is on a weekly basis for a season of 10 months. And Tennis is not even among the most physical sport out there. The human body is not design to substain this, the human body can easily breakdown and this the tool for their professional living that they depend on.
the question of the intensity of what's required from them is clearly raised, in tennis but also for instance in football/soccer. That's clearly a big challenge for the notion that they mustn't dope and clearly a reason why once doping is developing, most athletes "have to" use the same PED to be able to follow the same regime.

That's why many people concerned about anti-doping ask for sports which require less intensity from their sportsmen. In tennis, for instance ask for quicker surfaces and a smaller calendar. It's clearly a topic which anti-doping authorities are very much concerned about and have some things to say.

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
So I also think is close minded and prejudicial to think that these athletes should only use bread and water and ignore science developments that so clearly can help them train harder, recover better from injuries etc.
it's not close-minded, the choice for so much intensity is not a given, it's a choice which anti-doping authorities and also some athletes do question.

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
I know the argument that if you allow this people will search for more dangerous substances I am not so sure though.
this argument is much more obvious for PEDs than for recreational drugs. For recreational drugs, people may want "more" but at least there's no immediate question of performance and competition to be "better" than the others.

In sports, competition, the argument of increasing performance, looking for more and more, is the key of the activity.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:07 PM   #1070
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

http://www.thetennisspace.com/tennis...ro-dosing-epo/
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:18 PM   #1071
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Biologists are able to see anormal deviations from an athlete's standards, that's the main interest of the biological passport.
Yes, but that is concerned with "standard", as you say, whereas I'm talking about "optimal". This would be much harder to adminster fairly and so it's better in my opinion to stick with the banned substances position despite how I am drawn in many ways to the other position.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:16 PM   #1072
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Just like heaven View Post
thanks good interview of the WADA's director

Some interesting answers in the last part :

Quote:
Q : Tennis is talking about introducing the biological passport. Any idea when that will be?

A : Oh, I think they’re going to do it this year
and we’ve encouraged them to get on with it. I think that would be a really good stake in the sand, if you like, to show that they’re keeping up.

Q : You still hear some people in tennis say EPO is of little use to tennis players. How does that make you feel?

A : So many people get off on saying, this is not going to be good for us. Marion Jones was using EPO. You can’t tell me that a player who is out there for five and a half hours couldn’t benefit from a little micro-dosing of EPO.

Q : I spoke to top players in Melbourne. Mike Bryan said he had never been blood tested out of competition in his whole career.

A : Look, don’t overstate the blood. Blood really, blood testing is for the passport at the moment and for a few substances like blood doping and growth hormone. We want more blood to be taken but it’s not the be all and end all. Urine testing has to be done, out of competition. If you do blood, that’s helpful for the passport, so if you establish the passport, you should be doing both.

Q : That’s because there is a urine test for EPO?

A : Totally. It’s only urine.

Q : There are a lot of governing bodies in tennis. Does that make things harder?

A : Tennis was a little bit easier because they wanted to get the tours under the ITF umbrella. So what we had to do was to break down the resistance, from the ATP in particular, and the WTA a little bit, to Wada. The ITF had agreed. It took a wee while to do that. It was mostly as a result of the nandrolone issue and the pills. We criticised that pretty heavily and it took a wee while to get through. A lot of it is relationship building and getting on with people.

Q : Every time someone is injured for a long period, there are always rumours that it’s really a drugs ban that’s been covered up. Do you think things like that have been covered up in the past?

A : It could have in the past, but not now. I don’t think there’s any cover-up going on now. If it’s a positive case, it goes into our system….I should pause…if it’s a positive case that doesn’t go into our system and somehow that there’s a deal (saying) ‘you just stand down for a while’, then we’d never know about it. The only way that could happen would be if there was a crook in the lab.

Q : Is there any way to collate the testing analysis between the NADOs and all the testing authorities, so it’s more transparent?

A : You know what, tennis did that, they were one of the only sports that did but they cancelled it because they were one of the only sports that did. We can’t get it done because of the European data protection (laws). People are putting obstacles in our way where there’s good reason for publication to occur but they don’t want it to occur. I don’t understand. There’s nothing in the code that says ‘thou shall not publish’. It’s ‘thou may’.”

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Old 02-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #1073
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
there's a big difference with recreational drugs : nobody will get any recognition or reward for taking a recreational drug, it's not an activity which is valued by the society because it's associated with pleasure, not with performance. It's considered as a little bit shameful activity, even when the consumption is allowed (and I'm rather in favour of this allowance for drugs like marijuana). And there's an addiction problem, but at least people are aware that it's bad for themselves and their body to abuse those things.

My problem with allowing PEDs is clear and it's not only their danger for the health as you seem to think : as soon as you've decided that, and even if commercials are more or less forbidden, you will read everywhere plenty of articles praising the advantage of this or that PED for the common person, everybody will want to increase one's performances through this or that. Humans will be living pharmacies. I know that there's already an evolution this way, especially in the USA, and I'm not surprised that you seem to come from the USA saying that. But I don't think it's a good direction for the world and human beings in general..
I believe this comes from a purist point of view. I rarely use Pharmacy products, only when really necessary, but no one can deny that they are on frontier of human evolution and can bring great benefits to society when used correctly. Look at this piece, It talks about the older men being able to use the advancements of hormones such as HGH and testosterone replacement. 77 years old and probably has a body more in shape than most at MTF. A lot of people, if they get to 77, can barely do any exercise. Is it fair to call him a walking pharmacy? If science developments helps you do get to 77 in great physical shape and continue an active lifestyle, who is going to ignore it and ask for their mullet back?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knte45tVGSo


Again, I am not for no PEDs regulation, but the all out prohibition is so purist. Imagine the notion that regular people who don't rely on their bodies for a living, as science continue to advance will have access to products and treatments to enhance themselves, while Professional athletes are suppose to be on bread and water. I also don't buy the notion of pandering to dumb people because Athletes are suppose to be held at higher role model standards and treated differently as if they are not humans.
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #1074
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
I believe this come from a more purist point of view. I rarely use Pharmacy products, only when really necessary, but no one can deny that they are on frontier of human evolution and can bring great benefits to society when used correctly. Look at this piece, It talks about the older men being able to use the advancements of hormones such as HGH and testosterone replacement. Look at the guy, 77 years old and probably has a body more in shape than most at MTF. A lot of people, if they get to 77, can barely do any exercise. Is it fair to call him a walking pharmacy? If science developments helps you do get to 77 in great physical shape and continue an active lifestyle, who is going to ignore it and ask for their mullet back?
you had already talked before about the difference between performance enhancing and medical treatments, this distinction is a key of the definition of PEDS.

Besides, I have nothing against chemical products myself but they're used in a right way : top-level athletes who dope maye have the medical team for that but for every day's people, it's different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
Again, I am not for no PEDs regulation, but the all out prohibition is so purist. Imagine the notion that regular people who don't rely on their bodies for a living, as science continue to advance will have access to products and treatments to enhance themselves, while Professional athletes are suppose to be on bread and water, it is a bit naive, no?
who's purist and who says they have to be on bread and water ? a lot of things are there to help them, which are accepted, from energy drinks to bars ...

Be precise : who's purist in your mind ? do you think the WADA is purist ?

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I also don't buy the notion of pandering to dumb people because Athletes are suppose to be held at higher role model standards and treated differently as if they are not humans.
they don't use PEDs in their "average human"'s activity, it's not viagra , they use it in their job, and every job has its own rules and constraints.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:06 PM   #1075
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Apparently the police discovered steroids in Pistorius' house. Another example of how top athletes are never caught by tests, only by being physically caught with the stuff or by someone blowing the whistle on them.

You would think that athletics, of all sports, would be able to catch a steroid user by now.

As for the tennis testing - it is pretty clear that the only things stopping a top player from getting an advantage with drugs are their ability to get hold of them, and their conscience. The whole of sporting history shows that neither is a real deterrent.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:15 PM   #1076
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Swedish scientists have discovered a new method which can detect blood doping.

http://www.svt.se/sport/ny-metod-kan-avsloja-dopning
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:47 PM   #1077
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Swedish scientists have discovered a new method which can detect blood doping.

http://www.svt.se/sport/ny-metod-kan-avsloja-dopning
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:04 AM   #1078
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

International Tennis Federation to increase testing on players linked to Dr Luis García del Moral

Quote:
Dr Luis García del Moral, who was banned by US anti-doping officials when they published their evidence against Armstrong and his US Postal team last year, is based in Valencia and had a 15-year association with tennis players from the nearby TenisVal Academy.

The ITF was so concerned about Del Moral’s alleged links to tennis players that it sent a message to all tennis professionals telling them not to work with him. But Telegraph Sport understands anti-doping bodies remain concerned that some players may be continuing to work with Del Moral despite the warning and have therefore increased the level of testing undergone by those under suspicion.

In a further measure, former and current tennis players from the TenisVal Academy have been questioned by the ITF over their work with Del Moral in the past. All those who admitted to having done so insisted they saw Del Moral only for testing and analysis, and maintain they have not engaged in any blood doping or illegal drug practices.

The US Anti-Doping Agency (Usada) evidence claimed Del Moral was actively promoting drug use in the US Postal team from 1999 to 2003. Another cyclist, Floyd Landis, said he paid the doctor US$10,000 directly to conduct blood transfusions.

Usada said: “Numerous riders will testify that Dr Del Moral gave to them, encouraged them to use and/or assisted them in using doping products and/or prohibited methods.’’

Del Moral had previously claimed via a website which has since been shut down that he also worked with Valencia and Barcelona football teams. Barcelona told Telegraph Sport last year they had no record of him being on their payroll, while Valencia declined to comment.

In the note to players the ITF warned of taking care when considering who to seek treatment, guidance and advice from in the future, highlighting that Del Moral had trafficked EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, human growth hormone, corticosteroids and masking agents and administered those drugs to professional cyclists.

The ITF says it has been satisfied that the tennis players linked with Del Moral were not engaging in blood doping.
But authorities have been concerned that some players may still be associating with Del Moral. Under current World Anti Doping rules the doctor cannot be given any official status at any sports event around the world but there are no direct bans preventing him from continuing to see players.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...del-Moral.html

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mods drag this thread outside and have several spotted hyenas shit on it for 4 straight days. you may have to bribe the hyenas but they will shit on it.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:30 AM   #1079
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

As if anyone needed to guess what "services" Lance Armstrong's doctor was supplying to tennis players.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:01 AM   #1080
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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typical of how many people consider politics on MTF (and unfortunately overall in our democracies ) : what's "really serious" in politics is not mediatic words, but ACTS.

Introducing the biological passport in tennis would be a major act.
It's not like Federer's doing much about it.
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