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View Poll Results: What was Ancic's potential compared to his age peers - Soderling, Berdych and Tsonga?

He could have been better than them 13 31.71%
Roughly the same 12 29.27%
He was inferior to them 16 39.02%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-03-2013, 12:01 AM   #61
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Because it's not a simple question at all bar for those with very narrow views. There's hardly anything more difficult than comparing the relative levels of players who peaked in different eras against different fields.

Just to put this myth that Gaudio did nothing else other than his Slam in perspective though:

-he won 8 titles, that's the same # of titles as Berdych and one less than Tsonga
-his highest ranking was #5, that's as high as Tsonga ever got and higher than Berdych
-he reached the SF of the TMC/WTF (same as Berdych)

Yes, they did have better careers outside of the Slam Gaudio won - bigger titles, more deep Slams runs and wins over top players on the big stage -, but it's not like Gaudio was only relevant during those two weeks unlike many want to convey.

Some people on MTF (like you) love to attack players and their achievements without ever having watched them play or even taken the time to analyse their career, it's important to keep perspective and block this disinformation.

Gaudio had a good career. But he was a disaster at the slams, except for that RG.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:01 AM   #62
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
I never said it was, in any case you were the one saying it when you said he only played well for 2 weeks, not taking into consideration all the other great results apart from the USO.
Yes, but I was using Lenders logic there trying to make him understand me, as he fails to understand normal human logic.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:03 AM   #63
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Because it's not a simple question at all bar for those with very narrow views. There's hardly anything more difficult than comparing the relative levels of players who peaked in different eras against different fields.

Just to put this myth that Gaudio did nothing else other than his Slam in perspective though:

-he won 8 titles, that's the same # of titles as Berdych and one less than Tsonga
-his highest ranking was #5, that's as high as Tsonga ever got and higher than Berdych
-he reached the SF of the TMC/WTF (same as Berdych)

Yes, they did have better careers outside of the Slam Gaudio won - bigger titles, more deep Slams runs and wins over top players on the big stage -, but it's not like Gaudio was only relevant during those two weeks unlike many want to convey.

Some people on MTF (like you) love to attack players and their achievements without ever having watched them play or even taken the time to analyse their career, it's important to keep perspective and block this disinformation.
Another stupid and pointless reply.

A grand slam win is a grand slam win. Why does it matter if it was in 2004 when they weren't around?

I'll try again:

Is Gaudio a better player than Berdych, Tsonga and Soderling?

Yes or no.


P.S. Federer won the Aus Open, Wimbledon and the US Open in the same year that Gaudio won the French.

You know who Roger Federer is, right?
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:05 AM   #64
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
Gaudio had a good career. But he was a disaster at the slams, except for that RG.
True. But some people like to act as if he was only a good player during those two weeks to make his Slam a fluke. So what if he only put it together at a Slam once? It still beats never being able to do it. And he didn't exactly have an easy draw, well on the contrary; he didn't have to face Fed and Nadal like Delpo for his Slam, but still quite a tough draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Another stupid and pointless reply.

A grand slam win is a grand slam win. Why does it matter if it was in 2004 when they weren't around?

I'll try again:

Is Gaudio a better player than Berdych, Tsonga and Soderling?

Yes or no.


P.S. Federer won the Aus Open, Wimbledon and the US Open in the same year that Gaudio won the French.

You know who Roger Federer is, right?
I'll assume you're trolling out of good faith in your intelligence but I'll still bite and try to explain in the clearest way possible. A Grand Slam in 2004 didn't have the same field as a Grand Slam in 2013 or even close: the obstacles a player in 2004 had to overcome to reach Slam finals or winning Slams are entirely different than the ones now. The simple fact that Gaudio won a Slam and Tsonga didn't tells us nothing about the level of tennis they played/were capable of since the field they were up against was completely different.

The same does not apply to Ferrer, Berdych and Tsonga, who all had/have to overcome the same obstacles en route to deep Slams runs/big titles. Who did Ferrer lose to in his Slam semis? Nadal, Djokovic... Who did Tsonga and Berdych overcome to reach their finals? Those two. The rest of the top contenders are also the same, so if one players does better than the others in reaching final/winning events/beating the very top players since we're talking about second tier players here, we can accurately conclude that he is better.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:14 AM   #65
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
True. But some people like to act as if he was only a good player during those two weeks to make his Slam a fluke. So what if he only put it together at a Slam once? It still beats never being able to do it. And he didn't exactly have an easy draw, well on the contrary; he didn't have to face Fed and Nadal like Delpo for his Slam, but still quite a tough draw.
Yes. Some people call it a fluke because Coria's choking on the final, but he played fantastic tennis in his road to the final. He destroyed Hewitt and Nalbandian who were playing great and he had some tough matches early on because of being unseeded (5-set epics against Novak and Cañas in the first 2 rounds). He defintely diserved that slam.

And in 2005 he had a great season, he qualifed to the WTF and reach the SF. After that for some reason he vanished. But he ended top 10 for 2 straight years, which isn't easy at all.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:18 AM   #66
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post

I'll assume you're trolling out of good faith in your intelligence but I'll still bite and try to explain in the clearest way possible. A Grand Slam in 2004 didn't have the same field as a Grand Slam in 2013 or even close: the obstacles a player in 2004 had to overcome to reach Slam finals or winning Slams are entirely different than the ones now. The simple fact that Gaudio won a Slam and Tsonga didn't tells us nothing about the level of tennis they played/were capable of since the field they were up against was completely different.

The same does not apply to Ferrer, Berdych and Tsonga, who all had/have to overcome the same obstacles en route to deep Slams runs/big titles. Who did Ferrer lose to in his Slam semis? Nadal, Djokovic... Who did Tsonga and Berdych overcome to reach their finals? Those two. The rest of the top contenders are also the same, so if one players does better than the others in reaching final/winning events/beating the very top players since we're talking about second tier players here, we can accurately conclude that he is better.
Again, more nonsense.

Do you consider Thomas Johansson to be a better player than David Nalbandian?

Nalbandian was in the 2002 US Open so all I want is a yes or no answer.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:20 AM   #67
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Again, more nonsense.

Do you consider Thomas Johansson to be a better player than David Nalbandian?

Nalbandian was in the 2002 Wimbledon final so all I want is a yes or no answer.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:21 AM   #68
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
You really think so? I think Ancic has way more variety in his volleys and approaches the net far more sensibly than Tsonga. Tsonga is an excellent volleyer for today's standards, but remember Mario made a few great Wimbledon runs in his early years by serve & volleying his way through

I think Tsonga has a slightly better serve though, both have good variety and disguise and good 1st serve %, but Tsonga has more power on it I think and also a better second serve.



Yup, many people seem to think of Ancic and the serve & volley 20yo that was close to a Wimbledon final, he had become much more by 2006, let alone upon his comeback, he was a tremendous fighter and could grind it out even with someone like Murray.

Great post overall, I also believe grass is where he'd be a real contender. He had a lot to offer to the tour though, such a shame his career ended so tragically.
hehe thanks.

you might enjoy the longer version then

http://shanktennis.com/2011/02/24/ma...a-talent-lost/
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:23 AM   #69
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
Yes. Some people call it a fluke because Coria's choking on the final, but he played fantastic tennis in his road to the final. He destroyed Hewitt and Nalbandian who were playing great and he had some tough matches early on because of being unseeded (5-set epics against Novak and Cañas in the first 2 rounds). He defintely diserved that slam.

And in 2005 he had a great season, he qualifed to the WTF and reach the SF. After that for some reason he vanished. But he ended top 10 for 2 straight years, which isn't easy at all.
Yup, he had two pretty good years on tour. It's a shame he vanished kind of soon, but still he does not deserve this 'fluke' label at all. For some bizarre reason, it seems like on MTF being very talented but not winning a Slam earns you more respect than actually going out there and taking one. The kind of flak 1-Slam winners get here is unbelievable
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:25 AM   #70
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Yup, he had two pretty good years on tour. It's a shame he vanished kind of soon, but still he does not deserve this 'fluke' label at all. For some bizarre reason, it seems like on MTF being very talented but not winning a Slam earns you more respect than actually going out there and taking one. The kind of flak 1-Slam winners get here is unbelievable
I'm finding that out lately as well
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:30 AM   #71
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Again, more nonsense.

Do you consider Thomas Johansson to be a better player than David Nalbandian?

Nalbandian was in the 2002 US Open so all I want is a yes or no answer.
I'm sure you thought this was really smart, but it really wasn't. When Johansson was on the way out, Nalbandian was only starting to peak. You do realize that when Johansson won his Slam, Nalbandian was a 20yo only starting his third year on the ATP tour playing his 2nd ever GS event, right?

Besides, cases like Nalbandian and Davydenko are at least open to debate since their non-Slam achievements are quite extraordinary, both won the next biggest event - TMC/WTF - and multiple Masters. These are cases where you can actually debate whether it can supersede a single Slam, winning tons of 250/500s is definitely not the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
hehe thanks.

you might enjoy the longer version then

http://shanktennis.com/2011/02/24/ma...a-talent-lost/
Thanks, great read
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:32 AM   #72
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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I'm sure you thought this was really smart, but it really wasn't. When Johansson was on the way out, Nalbandian was only starting to peak. You do realize that when Johansson won his Slam, Nalbandian was a 19yo only starting his third year on the ATP tour, right?

Besides, cases like Nalbandian and Davydenko are at least open to debate since their non-Slam achievements are quite extraordinary, both won the next biggest event - TMC/WTF - and multiple Masters. These are cases where you can actually debate whether it can supersede a single Slam, winning tons of 250/500s is definitely not the same.


The above answer is why you're a joke on these forums.

You state fact when it is fiction and vice versa. Your logic is that of a 5 year old child.

Well done on embarrassing and humiliating yourself yet again.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:39 AM   #73
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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The above answer is why you're a joke on these forums.

You state fact when it is fiction and vice versa. Your logic is that of a 5 year old child.

Well done on embarrassing and humiliating yourself yet again.
More like it's why I'm a good poster . Unlike you, my aim is not to use empty rhetorics to 'win' arguments whatever that means, but to discuss tennis.

Deflecting attention with a post like that to make it sound like you 'won' just because you run of arguments is the oldest trick in the book
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:59 AM   #74
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

I'll give a few more examples of where your logic is incredibly stupid.

Reaching a Slam final is better than winning Master Series events as you yourself have said. It must therefore rank higher than the WTF too. I mean that's an 8 man tournament at the end of a long season right? At the start of the season you don't target winning the WTF over any of the Slams so reaching a Slam final is definitely better.

Could you therefore answer yes or no the to following questions:


Is Fernando Gonzalez better than Davydenko?

Is Baghdatis better than Davydenko?

Are Berdych, Tsonga and Solderling all better than Davydenko?

Is Guillermo Coria better than Davydenko?

Is Fernando Gonzalez better than Nalbandian?

Is Baghdatis better than Nalbandian?

Are Berdych, Tsonga and Solderling all better than Nalbandian?

Is Guillermo Coria better than Nalbandian?

Yes or no only please.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:08 AM   #75
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Default Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
I'll give a few more examples of where your logic is incredibly stupid.

Reaching a Slam final is better than winning Master Series events as you yourself have said. It must therefore rank higher than the WTF too. I mean that's an 8 man tournament at the end of a long season right? At the start of the season you don't target winning the WTF over any of the Slams so reaching a Slam final is definitely better.

Could you therefore answer yes or no the to following questions:


1-Is Fernando Gonzalez better than Davydenko?

2-Is Baghdatis better than Davydenko?

3-Are Berdych, Tsonga and Solderling all better than Davydenko?

4-Is Guillermo Coria better than Davydenko?

5-Is Fernando Gonzalez better than Nalbandian?

6-Is Baghdatis better than Nalbandian?

7-Are Berdych, Tsonga and Solderling all better than Nalbandian?

8-Is Guillermo Coria better than Nalbandian?

Yes or no only please.
1-No. WTF title + 3 Masters easily trumps Gonzalez.

2-No. Same as 1.

3-No. Neither has a Slam and a single Slam final isn't enough to supersede Davydenko's far better achievements otherwise. I'm not talking about Mickey Mouse events, but WTF title and 3 Masters events won over Nadal and Djokovic.

4-No. Same as 3.

5-No. Same as 1.

6-No. Both reached a Slam final, Nalby's career far better otherwise.

7-No. Same as 3.

8-No. Both reached a Slam final, Nalbandian better otherwise.



A more interesting debate would be something like Davydenko/Nalbandian vs someone like Del Potro. Winning a Slam is the pinnacle in tennis, but those guys actually have non-Slam achievements that might warrant a discussion with multiple Masters over the best in the world and a WTF/TMC.
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