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View Poll Results: Has Djokovic surpassed Edberg and Becker?

He has surpassed both 84 56.76%
He has surpassed neither 47 31.76%
He has surpassed Becker but not Edberg 13 8.78%
He has surpassed Edberg but not Becker 4 2.70%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-10-2013, 05:05 AM   #406
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
You need to quit pretending that the changes are all that dramatic. Novak has multiple SFs because he's that good.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:44 AM   #407
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Novak's talent is undeniable. He has a Wimbledon, and you're mad. So....stay mad, I guess.

His Wimbledon is worth just as much as any other person's Wimbledon and no amount of butthurt is going to change that fact.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:49 AM   #408
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

I'm not mad. Good on him! He earned it.

I'm just not pretending it means more than it actually does by trying to rewrite history.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:56 AM   #409
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
Novak's talent is undeniable. He has a Wimbledon, and you're mad. So....stay mad, I guess.

His Wimbledon is worth just as much as any other person's Wimbledon and no amount of butthurt is going to change that fact.
You seem to be the butthurt one when anyone says something that could be perceived as undermining his achievements. I never said his Wimbledon was worth any less, I'm just saying he probably wouldn't have won it on traditional grass. Grass is what it is - I just prefer it the way it used to be. As for your analysis of Nole simply being just that good - that type of reasoning I just too deep for me to comprehend.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:04 AM   #410
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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You seem to be the butthurt one when anyone says something that could be perceived as undermining his achievements. I never said his Wimbledon was worth any less
I was basically talking to Caesar (or anyone else trying to devalue it)

Quote:
I'm just saying he probably wouldn't have won it on traditional grass. Grass is what it is - I just prefer it the way it used to be. As for your analysis of Nole simply being just that good - that type of reasoning I just too deep for me to comprehend.
OK. Djokovic wouldn't have won on "traditional" grass. And the oldies in the past wouldn't have been able to win on TODAY'S grass.

And in this discussion, absolutely nothing was accomplished.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:12 AM   #411
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
If Djokovic was born in the 70s and played S&V instead then he probably wouldn't be in contention for RG or win anywhere near as as many hard court slams.
This is exactly why Agassi's Career Slam is the most impressive of all time.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:13 AM   #412
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

The main point is a lot of people who have been watching tennis for 10 plus years have no idea why it was necessary to change how grass plays. It's even more baffling since the grass season is only 2 weeks of the season. What's the point if having different surfaces if they're all similar. Clay is the only surface that has been largely untouched.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:05 PM   #413
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
The main point is a lot of people who have been watching tennis for 10 plus years have no idea why it was necessary to change how grass plays. It's even more baffling since the grass season is only 2 weeks of the season. What's the point if having different surfaces if they're all similar. Clay is the only surface that has been largely untouched.
What you don't grasp in your obsession to diminish Nole's talent is that he is a result of the era he plays in. He's just an all time great at what he does, he learnt to play tennis in a style that suited him in the era he was playing. You don't know if he had been born in the 70s if he would have been a completely different style of player and maybe an expert at S&V. It's all about talent and how you use it and adapt it.
To speculate about something that didn't happen and pretend you have all the right answers is extreme tardism, such as your colleague ceasar whatever. Your POVs are not legitimate, just speculation.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #414
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nole fan View Post
What you don't grasp in your obsession to diminish Nole's talent is that he is a result of the era he plays in. He's just an all time great at what he does, he learnt to play tennis in a style that suited him in the era he was playing. You don't know if he had been born in the 70s if he would have been a completely different style of player and maybe an expert at S&V. It's all about talent and how you use it and adapt it.
To speculate about something that didn't happen and pretend you have all the right answers is extreme tardism, such as your colleague ceasar whatever. Your POVs are not legitimate, just speculation.
This is correct. But Caesar and leng have extremely valid points as well. It all comes back to not comparing eras. This is what I posted earlier in the thread:

Quote:
You can pretty much link this thread question back to the "can't compare eras debate". There is absolutely no question that Djokovic is a modern day great but his achievements and accolades cannot really be compared to that of Edberg's and Becker's because they played in completely different conditions and with an insane difference in racquet technology.

Caesar is correct when he states that it is easier to accumulate one's slam count in today's contemporary conditions. No variety in surfaces = easier to dominate all 4 slams, thus increasing a players slam count significantly.

Like Federer said a while back, I think it is enough to be considered a "legend" of your own era that you played in. And that is what Nole will be when all is said and done. Trying to compare players achievements from differing era's is extremely debatable with no definitive answer.

I am not undermining Djokovic's achievements either. These are the conditions that have been built around his rise to the pinnacle of the sport and he has adapted to them fantastically. He is without doubt one of the best players of the modern era. I just don't see any logical or rational explanations to compare them to players from previous eras when there are so many variables to take into account.
I think it's a fairly simple concept to grasp but evidently it's quite a conundrum among the supreme intellects of MTF.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:46 PM   #415
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
The main point is a lot of people who have been watching tennis for 10 plus years have no idea why it was necessary to change how grass plays. It's even more baffling since the grass season is only 2 weeks of the season. What's the point if having different surfaces if they're all similar. Clay is the only surface that has been largely untouched.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:10 PM   #416
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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This is correct. But Caesar and leng have extremely valid points as well. It all comes back to not comparing eras. This is what I posted earlier in the thread:



I think it's a fairly simple concept to grasp but evidently it's quite a conundrum among the supreme intellects of MTF.
All you said is valid of course and in a way we are just saying the same thing. Eras can't be compared of course, it would be foolish to do so. But i would also argue djokovic wouldnt have been an all time great in a different era.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:20 PM   #417
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

i like agassi, however nole >> agassi >> ......... >> haas.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:21 PM   #418
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Double standards when comparing Fed's or Nadal's Slams counts to Djokovic's.

So it's ok to conclude that Fed and Nadal are better than Djokovic because they have more Slams than him. While Djokovic's Slams count can not and I stress CANNOT be used to compare with Edberg's and Becker's???? Caesar, pls stop your BS surface craps and get the hell out of here.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #419
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
It's representative of an era when surfaces required even the best players to be specialists, either in full or in part. The modern game allows players to play one game on all surfaces and the best players will be very successful on all of them.

To say that the top players have slight preferences for one surface over another is proof that homogenisation is a myth is just silly. It's not just about the top 4 - at every single slam you see the vast majority of seeds playing to their ranking. 10 years ago it just wasn't the case. You'd have low and unseeded players in SFs, top seeds regularly losing in the first few rounds, and so forth.

Modern surfaces are designed to be predictable and put the same players in a position to win every single tournament. Why? Big names bring dollars. It's in the best interests of organisers to make sure that the top players have the chance to win as many tournaments as possible. And the top players benefit from that. Hence their bigger slam counts.
You didn't answer any of my question, you just keep repeating your mantra.

Quote:
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To be fair Djokovic's slam count isn't really inflated. Obviously the Wimbledon title looks funny but the rest make sense.
Not that much. He struggled both against Baghdatis and Tomic in early rounds, then he took advantage of having Tsonga in the semis instead of Federer. Then he got Nadal who wasn't exactly high on confidence - if I remember correctly Nole broke him at first chance in the 1st set, run away with the second, and in 4th again made use of the fact Nadal got tight when it mattered. He didn't get the win because he was the best grass courter in the world, more like because he made most of his chances and of the moment, I don't think that's unheard of in sport
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:31 PM   #420
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Default Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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I'm just saying he probably wouldn't have won it on traditional grass.
Did Agassi win it on traditional grass or not?
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