Endless Djokovic/Murray debates. Do you like their matches? - Page 53 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: Do you like Murray-Djokovic matches

Yes 40 22.99%
No 82 47.13%
Sometimes- It depends really 52 29.89%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:51 PM   #781
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
Don't use math. They won't understand. Obviously Murray is the bigger server and returner in their match-up, so if he's playing well there isn't much Djokovic can do.
Murray's average first serve % is still only around 50% and he's not such a serving beast and anyway their matches can't only depend on serve and return.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:55 PM   #782
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
Murray's average first serve % is still only around 50% and he's not such a serving beast and anyway their matches can't only depend on serve and return.
They don't only depend on that, but if too say the match is on one of their racquet, I think Murray's form and mentality has more to do with outcome because has more ability in the first strike area where as Nole is more consistent as the point goes on.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:01 PM   #783
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by Johnbert View Post
it's all mental wise. so a lot depends on murrays head...
I don't know why they are arguing with this. Very rarely is Djokovic nowadays not in the right mentality, but depending on Murray's moods he can lose to the most random people imaginable. A lot does depend on Murray's head, mentality and focus. And it's really been lacking recently.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:01 PM   #784
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
They don't only depend on that, but if too say the match is on one of their racquet, I think Murray's form and mentality has more to do with outcome because has more ability in the first strike area where as Nole is more consistent as the point goes on.
I don't know but none of them is a player who relies a lot on one-shot strategy, and none of them can do that on a consistent basis during a match anyway.

I don't believe in such a strategy even for Federer then you know, Murray or Djokovic ...

The strategy of the one who is very solid is also a winning strategy.

And it's typically the strategy which Djokovic and Murray use on big points although they're able to do something else.

Imo there's something in his shots (more spin for him, flatter for Murray, better control on his forehand) and in his physical balance and thin body which make Djokovic potentially more solid on a good day than Murray can ever be with his shots and bigger body.

Then when I mean "it's more in his racket" I don't mean about making winners, not at all, quite the opposite actually : the ability to avoid more errors if he really wants it.

And I disagree that it's very rare these days to have a Djokovic with a bad mentality. His mentality is still up and down, more than in 2011 anyway.

I agree with Dr Jules that a lot is mental in their matches and they both have their ups and downs in that aspect, which often explains the result.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:23 PM   #785
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Correct.

Also irony of Nadal fans in here. We saw at Wimbledon what happened when a match was off his racket and the opponent didn't miss.
the way Rosol was playing, the match would have been on his racket against anyone.....
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:24 PM   #786
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by hipolymer View Post
Every match is on Nole's racket.
many matches in his career against Federer and Nadal have not been on his racket....
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:39 PM   #787
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

This whole "When Nole plays his best" clause is tiresome.

If Murray is the source of Djokovic's relatively frequent erraticism in their matches, what does that tell you? That Andy has a very distinct say in the match by affecting Novak's ability to effectively play his game. It's not like Andy's ability to neutralize weapons or force errors is some sort of illegitimate factor of the match, and I'd point out that his ability to do so is not exclusive to his match-up with Djokovic at all.

Some of his fans seem to like to emphasize it to excuse how closely matched the two players are, ignoring Murray's ability to do that to most players. Moreover, Djokovic has a tendency to make Andy litter up the unforced error chart as well, and it really derives from the fact that that neither player can readily claim, or sustain, a distinct advantage in their matches. This is due to the strengths and overall well-roundedness of both players.

People can attribute it slightly more to Djokovic due to the greater initiative he takes in matches (though ones like their recent WTF encounter show that this is not always the case; Andy had more winners), but even then that's debatable. Looking at their Dubai match from this year, the one that people mistakenly attributed to an "aggressive" Murray, was really more about Andy's ability to counter-punch and evoke errors from Nole on that surface. He took a reactive position, but that didn't mean the match was out of his control.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:44 PM   #788
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
I don't know but none of them is a player who relies a lot on one-shot strategy, and none of them can do that on a consistent basis during a match anyway.

I don't believe in such a strategy even for Federer then you know, Murray or Djokovic ...

The strategy of the one who is very solid is also a winning strategy.

And it's typically the strategy which Djokovic and Murray use on big points although they're able to do something else.

Imo there's something in his shots (more spin for him, flatter for Murray, better control on his forehand) and in his physical balance and thin body which make Djokovic potentially more solid on a good day than Murray can ever be with his shots and bigger body.

Then when I mean "it's more in his racket" I don't mean about making winners, not at all, quite the opposite actually : the ability to avoid more errors if he really wants it.

And I disagree that it's very rare these days to have a Djokovic with a bad mentality. His mentality is still up and down, more than in 2011 anyway.

I agree with Dr Jules that a lot is mental in their matches and they both have their ups and downs in that aspect, which often explains the result.
Very well explained, agree with this.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:49 PM   #789
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
This whole "When Nole plays his best" clause is tiresome.

If Murray is the source of Djokovic's relatively frequent erraticism in their matches, what does that tell you? That Andy has a very distinct say in the match by affecting Novak's ability to effectively play his game. It's not like Andy's ability to neutralize weapons or force errors is some sort of illegitimate factor of the match, and I'd point out that his ability to do so is not exclusive to his match-up with Djokovic at all.

Some of his fans seem to like to emphasize it to excuse how closely matched the two players are, ignoring Murray's ability to do that to most players. Moreover, Djokovic has a tendency to make Andy litter up the unforced error chart as well, and it really derives from the fact that that neither player can readily claim, or sustain, a distinct advantage in their matches. This is due to the strengths and overall well-roundedness of both players.

People can attribute it slightly more to Djokovic due to the greater initiative he takes in matches (though ones like their recent WTF encounter show that this is not always the case; Andy had more winners), but even then that's debatable. Looking at their Dubai match from this year, the one that people mistakenly attributed to an "aggressive" Murray, was really more about Andy's ability to counter-punch and evoke errors from Nole on that surface. He took a reactive position, but that didn't mean the match was out of his control.
That was what I was referring to when i said Nole has a more attacking mentality than Murray, in the sense that he always takes initiative earlier than Murray in the point.
Agree more or less with this post.
However we're discussing here the match up, obviously achievements wise Djokovic is very much superior to Murray and not only because he has 5 slams, but because he's always been ahead of him since they broke through early on. There is a reason why Djokovic has been number 3 for four years before his monster season and Andy always 4.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:12 PM   #790
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by Nole fan View Post
That was what I was referring to when i said Nole has a more attacking mentality than Murray, in the sense that he always takes initiative earlier than Murray in the point.
Agree more or less with this post.
However we're discussing here the match up, obviously achievements wise Djokovic is very much superior to Murray and not only because he has 5 slams, but because he's always been ahead of him since they broke through early on. There is a reason why Djokovic has been number 3 for four years before his monster season and Andy always 4.
Some excellent posts on this topic in amongst some of the garbage. Nice read, thank you.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:20 PM   #791
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
This whole "When Nole plays his best" clause is tiresome.

If Murray is the source of Djokovic's relatively frequent erraticism in their matches, what does that tell you? That Andy has a very distinct say in the match by affecting Novak's ability to effectively play his game. It's not like Andy's ability to neutralize weapons or force errors is some sort of illegitimate factor of the match, and I'd point out that his ability to do so is not exclusive to his match-up with Djokovic at all.

Some of his fans seem to like to emphasize it to excuse how closely matched the two players are, ignoring Murray's ability to do that to most players. Moreover, Djokovic has a tendency to make Andy litter up the unforced error chart as well, and it really derives from the fact that that neither player can readily claim, or sustain, a distinct advantage in their matches. This is due to the strengths and overall well-roundedness of both players.

People can attribute it slightly more to Djokovic due to the greater initiative he takes in matches (though ones like their recent WTF encounter show that this is not always the case; Andy had more winners), but even then that's debatable. Looking at their Dubai match from this year, the one that people mistakenly attributed to an "aggressive" Murray, was really more about Andy's ability to counter-punch and evoke errors from Nole on that surface. He took a reactive position, but that didn't mean the match was out of his control.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:26 PM   #792
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

Djokovic>Murray.

Murray fans, accept reality. Djokovic is better than Murray. Djokovic wins over Murray 10 times out of 10 if he's at all in decent form. Murray can make it close, but Nole has that 10% Murray will never have.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:26 PM   #793
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

it's the same thing for Roger ............when Fed is at his A+ game he cant be beaten by anyone......sure he is older now and slower,weaker but in his prime he was the best .........same with Novak now......if he is at A+ he will beat anyone on any court
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:29 PM   #794
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

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it's the same thing for Roger ............when Fed is at his A+ game he cant be beaten by anyone......sure he is older now and slower,weaker but in his prime he was the best .........same with Novak now......if he is at A+ he will beat anyone on any court
I agree and I will say it only once, Fed at his best is better than anyone else.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:35 PM   #795
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Default Re: Djokovic vs Murray matches: is the match always on Djokovic's racket?

And the real reality is, it is an insult to Federer and Djokovic to keep trying to fit Murray into their club, when it is beyond clear he does not belong in their group.
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