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Old 01-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #91
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Looner View Post
Such a desperate Nadaltard .
My friend, Nadal is hardly be the only possible subject of such speculations.

In fact, it is just as plausible given this conspiracy scenario that Federer who tires very little and is playing at a very high level in his 30s would be "suspicious" to anyone with a conspiratorial mindset who didn't already hate Nadal and love Federer.

In fact who could ever denounce the GOAT?

Pure evil genius I say.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:51 PM   #92
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
What you just did was again engage in the conspiratorial mindset while initially saying you believe that to be problematic i.e. having your cake and eating it too.

Cycling was an an entirely different story. The level and quality of the denunciations was orders of magnitude greater and not just from peripheral figures in the sport. Why is it that of thousands of former players, coaches and trainers we have almost nothing like what Rochus is saying? Rochus is the only one who "doesn't care"? Perhaps Rochus is one with particularly sour grapes? Just as logical of course.

If you have a predisposition to buy his argument going into it, you will buy his argument. There is not ONE shred of evidence in his accusations.

It is extraordinarily difficult to have a massive enterprise which depends on THOUSANDS of people keeping silent with the virtual absence of leaks, evidence and denunciations.

The conspiratorial mindset at work.
Well, this whole story might become just as cycling in 10 years, as cycling started many years ago.

Of course Rochus' words mean nothing.

But tell me then your opinion about the Agassi case. Is it just an exception, they did it just once and only because it wasn't dope but hardcore drugs?

Maybe it's like this, but common sense suggests that if it is spread in other sports, it has been denounced and proven there, and you have a (pretty much) proven case already in this one, then most of the time among 10 doubtful, uncommon situations one would be a case.

I wouldn't defend this in court of course, as in court the fact that when smth happens 1mil times it still may be by coincidence until proven, here where we are just speculating it actually has the weight of facts.

I could defend your case as well, but it all leads to - allegations, logic, unclear statements, uncommon absences, illogical sudden blooms, etc. are not hard proofs, so it doesn't exist.

But this is for a verdict, while here it's about forming an opinion and common sense + logic is treated as hardcore redhanded proof.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:52 PM   #93
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
page introuvable could u please re-post it?

It's clear there are many suggestions, hints and even clear accusations, otherwise we wouldn't be speaking about it at all.
Sorry. It should be working now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
The burden of proof is on the accuser mon ami. Your article didn't come up and I do read French.

If there are tons then you should easily be able to find many for us all to evaluate.

Of course, the conspiratorial mindset has a different standard for what "tons" and "evidence" means.
Yeah well you probably saw my post before I edited it. I was saying "tons" was an exaggeration, but there are some. And no, though I have read a lot about doping, I am not writing a PhD on it and did not keep the references with me so I cannot give you lots of articles, sorry.

As for "evidence"... It is far from being that easy to define as a concept. Testimony can constitute evidence, and yet, how to know when a witness's telling the truth? There's a lot of interpretation at work in judging what's "evidence" and what isn't. In doping matters, there is little evidence, and much speculation. That's the way it is. Sometimes the evidence can be damning, sometimes it's insufficient, but you can still have an opinion. I'm not taking anyone to court, just saying what I think is true based on my own speculation.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:55 PM   #94
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
Thank you for making fun of me and caricaturing my reasoning.
I bet you take the French 'all-spanish in every sport are doping' mantra seriously.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:55 PM   #95
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
The burden of proof is on the accuser mon ami. Your article didn't come up and I do read French.


If there are tons then you should easily be able to find many for us all to evaluate.

Of course, the conspiratorial mindset has a different standard for what "tons" and "evidence" means.
Here are some quotes, just 60 seconds of google browsing - http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blog...ut-doping.html
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:56 PM   #96
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

so i can go aorund accusing everybody who is better than me in any area, of course with no proof
someone boasts of claiming Armstrong was doping, without evidence, I guess you did not know, just hoped so, and now you are glad, but I can say RF is diping, and if in 10 years he admits I can say I told you so, if not, who cares, noone will remember anyway
without proof it is only speculation, not only for doping, for anything, you can say million thing about million things, hoping just one to happen to be true, it is like telling the future - tell million things one will happen, 100%
professional sport does not run on mineral water, even allowed chemicals are chemicals and enhance performance, if you are poor you can
afford cheap chemicals and some of them can be contaminated, if you are rich you can afford the best, all this allowed
can a teniss player take multivitamin - sure, ordinary people are even urged to do it because food, water, soils are depleted, why not tennis players
i do not know how it is bit there should be standards, approved pool of medical substances and producers so everybody is on the same stuff
you just cannot train and play all this time and do it on water and steak,
about gluten - every person with 2 brain cell should be off this mean protein let alone a tennis player, clever Nole, all the Paleo craze is about ditching gluten and other tricky stuff, the first thing a pro sport person should do is get rid of grains
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:57 PM   #97
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
I was saying "tons" was an exaggeration, but there are some...As for "evidence"... It is far from being that easy to define as a concept...just saying what I think is true based on my own speculation.

Well now, this sounds VERY different.


Before: tons of evidence.


After: there is some evidence depending on what we think evidence might be and you feel some of it to be true based on your own speculation.


Gee, that sounds rock solid.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:58 PM   #98
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by pierricbross View Post
I bet you take the French 'all-spanish in every sport are doping' mantra seriously.
I couldn't remember who actually said that, was it Yannick Noah?

I could make a case for both parties about this one, but of course political correctness dictates to take the side of the not guilty until proven.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:58 PM   #99
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
The ITF used to do this, a per-tournament document. Then in 2009 they accidentally published one that showed top players skipping out of competition tests left, right and centre.

Since then, they've massively clamped down on what they release.
This thread should be specifically about Rochus' statements. I think all other valid "doping in tennis" conversation should go in the already existing MTF main doping thread. Most of the points being made here have been made in that thread repeatedly. This post can also go there.

The biggest problem today is that the sports organizations that are responsible and highly motivated to promote their own sport and athletes, are also responsible for managing the anti-doping testing protocols, UCI for cycling, ITF for tennis, etc. It is a clear conflict of interest, and these organizations should never have been permitted to run the anti-doping show from the start. But which sports authority or organization would allow an outside, independent, agency to run the anti-doping show in their sport, especially with the vast amount of money involved, unless they are required or mandated by a higher authority to do so?

There are solutions, but they need to be discussed and mandated at a higher level, such as WADA, where they will have power over each sport.

For sports where there is international competition such as tennis, I would suggest that the independent agency or agencies (perhaps WADA or some subsidiary) that would be in charge of the anti-doping controls be given power of testing and perhaps just as important, power of investigation such as what USADA had and executed in the Armstrong matter. The USADA has this power by virtue of its governmental authority. This means that the independent agency or agencies would have to go to each government where investigation is necessary and get the necessary authority of investigative power.

In countries that have agencies that already have this power, such as the USADA, as long as those agencies are clearly independent of the sports whose anti-doping activities they are policing, perhaps those agencies might be designated as an authoritative subsidiary of a central anti-doping control agency. However, some may say that a country's own agency might protect its own athletes, so perhaps there need to be "world" representatives within each authorized government agency to ensure there is as little corruption as possible. Even though it may be complex, I'm sure there are many with ideas of how to properly handle anti-doping management, from WADA, to former dopers and facilitators, to former heads of anti-doping controls, like Richard Ings. Funding shouldn't be too difficult. The amount tennis currently allocates is ridiculously low considering its revenues compared to cycling. Events should be required to contribute x% of their revenue as needed to the anti-doping agencies.

As long as the anti-doping control responsibility remains in the hands of the sport's organizations or authorities, suspicion is natural. With the current weak testing regimen in tennis, and risk vs. reward, one should suspect that various amounts of doping is rampant, only limited by a player's resources. Suspicion should be high that any notable positive test incidents are being covered up to "protect the sport" given the current lack of transparency.

Accusations are difficult to prove when there is no evidence being provided. But as we learned from Armstrong, the fact that a player or players have no public positive tests does not mean that doping does not exist. What we do know is that the current environment in tennis is such where there are clear benefits to doping, sufficient and proper out of competition testing does not exist, in-competition testing is insufficient (is likely not to catch someone that is micro-dosing), is poorly funded, and the reward currently outweighs the risk of being caught.

Respectfully,
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:59 PM   #100
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Care to elaborate on why?

One is a substance used to enhance performance and one is a substance used with no connections toward improving performance and almost solely assists in significantly deteriorating performance.
And Agassi didn't win anything during the period he used crystal meth. He barely played and dropped to #141 in the ranking.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:01 PM   #101
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Well, anyway, sorry for the posting spree. I do not want people to think that I'm trying to denigrate tennis or sports in general, or that I'm trying to be an attention-seeker by claiming credit for knowing better than everybody else.

It's just that it makes me sad to see people being very naive about doping (from my point of view). I'm afraid some of them will be very disappointed one day, as I was, if it turns out that doping is indeed widespread. Also, I'm tired of seeing specific players or sportsmen being singled out for criticism about doping, because I believe it is unfair (people accuse the players they don't like of doping, and ignore the suspicions on the others).

But anyway, we all have to live with our contradictions. My contradiction is that I have become very disillusioned about doping, and about the honesty of people in sports, and yet, I still get up at 4am to watch the Australian Open, and I'm still thrilled at the idea that I may go to Roland-Garros this year. I still love watching great skaters, great tennis players, and great cyclists evolve in front of my eyes. I would still be happy as anyone could be if Ferrer won a Slam.
So in a way, maybe I'm still living in Disneyland too.

Anyhow, I need to go back to work now.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:02 PM   #102
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It's clearly commonplace, but I suggest they attempt to enforce the rule instead
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:02 PM   #103
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
*deep breath*

Nope.

Tennis does about 10 in-competition tests a year, on average. These are completely useless, since the players know they're coming, so make sure they have nothing in their systems.

It also does an average of ONE out of competition test a year. This is hilarious - top cyclists get 30+.

Players can also skip two in an 18 month period without any penalty. This means when they are doping, they simply lie about where they are so as not to get tested. Sports that actually try to catch dopers do enough tests that they rapidly get to that two point and can't skip tests any more. Tennis doesn't, so it doesn't.

All these details are published on the ITF site.
http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp

For example, last year Nadal had "1-3" out of competition tests, and the same in 2010 (they do it in bands for privacy reasons). We know that most of those "1-3" mean 1, as they publish the total number of tests done.


Even sillier, almost all of the tests are urine. Blood tests are needed to detect a lot of substances.

There are numerous other mammoth loopholes, like slams only testing after a match. HGH/EPO in the right doses are only detectable for 10-12 hours, so players can dope themselves silly on off days.


The whole system is a complete joke.
Exactly!

And you forgot to mention that nearly all of the top players have missed out of competition tests, you know the one test they were subjected to that one year, most of them missed it.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:03 PM   #104
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Tribalfusion - are these quotes enough to consider them as "tons"? I believe it's quite a lot, from all kinds of players.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:05 PM   #105
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
Here are some quotes, just 60 seconds of google browsing - http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blog...ut-doping.html
I have seen that site many, many times as it is virtually the ONLY site ever mentioned. and I am sure you know that there is nothing in those quotes remotely like evidence, right?

Not one first hand account of anything seen etc. So what you have are a few more speculative quotes compiled most of which guess at there being the occasional instance or isolated case.
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