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Old 01-15-2013, 07:19 PM   #76
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
Well, strange as it may seem, I agree with him. Dunno about his accusations regarding players taking breaks, but I'm pretty sure the controls are mostly a joke and a diversion, and that people very high up make sure no one gets caught. Just as it was (and maybe as it is, still) in cycling.

No one involved in sport has an interest in revealing doping cases. And call me a pessimist, but I'm pretty sure this will never change. So, everyone says that it's "obvious" that legalizing doping is unacceptable, but I really don't see how pretending to struggle against doping is any better. What happens is that from time to time, one or two scapegoats are thrown to the dogs, in order to make the public believe that anti-doping is really working, while actually it's only a way to make sure that the others can continue in peace.

I have always had the feeling that Argentine players had been made scapegoats, possibly because their country is not as powerful as most... but I may be wrong on that, it's all speculation (but then again... my long-established belief that Armstrong and his whole team were the kings of doping was also speculation - at the time).



But who really believes this is a realistic definition of sport? Not of high level sport, it isn't. It's no secret that practising a sport at a high level is bad for your health, not good.
Sport is good for you when practised moderately. When it is practised intensively, it's not good, with or without doping.

People often act as if it's easy to decide when doping starts and when it stops. Sure, there are the rules, you can claim it starts when a practise is forbidden... But in more general terms, sportsmen all take stuff to improve their performances, vitamins, etc... When does it stop being "preparation" to start being "doping"? When they use special tents to create the confitions of high altitude, is that just a fair "preparation" practice, or is it already doping?

Of course, I know, it sounds outrageous to say that doping should be legalized. People are going to say that this amounts to saying athletes can damage their bodies as much as they want, etc...
But truly, we already know high level sport is bad. It's the same for anything that is taken to an extreme level. You could also claim that ballet should be forbidden, because ballet dancers often torture their bodies, the aesthetics of ballet encourage all sorts of eating disorders, and I've often heard doctors say that the body of a professional ballet dancer can be really traumatised and destroyed when he/she reaches the age of 30 or 40.
Marathon runners destroy their knees. Not even marathon runners only, I've read recently that Ferrer had stopped running and taken up cycling instead, because his knees were damaged by too much long-distance running. And I don't think I even need to mention Nadal's knees.

And the biggest problem with that counter-argument anyway (that it's irresponsible to advocate the legalization of doping because of the threat to the athlete's health), is that it assumes that doping is not already general. If you believe, as I do, that it is widespread anyway, in spite of the "controls"... then there would be no difference. If people are already doping, the only difference you make by making it legal is that you end the hypocrisy.

Now, if someone can come up with a system of controls that would actually work, sure, it would be better. But I don't see how this could be possible. "Independent bodies" are not really something I believe in. High level sports are a microcosm, and a "body" can remain "independent" only for so long when there's big business and a lot of power involved.
Maybe a strong system of checks and balances can be built in the future. That would require a complete restructuring of everything, probably. For now... I just wish they would end the hypocrisy. But given what usually happens to people who do try, I can understand why most people prefer to stay silent and save their careers. Maybe they would need a kind of giant "truth commission" for doping?...
The main reason for doping to never become legal is because sports will become a battle between pharmaceutical giants.

We don't want the top players having Bayer or GSK as main sponsors, but not just per se (we have a football club entirely named after one), mainly because when such battle begins, the rules couldn't be monitored.

One might invent a drug that makes miracles but in a longer term would eventually kill you. They would use it, i'm positive that one life is as cheap as a desktop pc for them compared to the billions of profit.

Who could control that no life threatening drug is used? Considering that the best chemists would be working for them.

Then when a few of the guinee pigs die - the sport can shut down and go to hell.

So there is no way for legalizing to happen, the only way is through strict control, stricter and stricter.

Also perhaps envolving the international polices (Interpol, etc.) and criminalize some parts of the whole process (which has been partially done already, by criminalizing the ppl transporting and selling it).

But you can't legalize it, it's impossible.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #77
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Doping will never be legalised, the public likes to think that what theyre watching is real. So they will continue to pretend like there is no problem, maybe with the occational scapegoat.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:22 PM   #78
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Absolutely right. And not just in sport.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:23 PM   #79
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
So one player (who never got anywhere close to the top) says players are doping.

Many other players ROUTINELY say there isn't any doping that they know of and somehow the one guy has more weight than the many who say there isn't any.

I would love to see Soderling run into Rochus sometime soon.

This is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset disregards any evidence or testimony which doesn't agree with its premises and how it elevates what testimony it can find to the status of bold truth.
It's exactly the opposite. Believe me, there are tons of testimonies that tell about doping. It's the people who refuse to accept the reality of widespread doping who are refusing to see the evidence. Not the other way around.

Why would the players admit to there being widespread doping, if they are themselves part of the system and benefit the most from it?

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
whereas Lance Armstrong is a textbook example of how the conspiratorial mindset can uncover a lot of hidden dirt.
Exactly. For years some people were denouncing him and were denounced as having a "conspirational mindset". I was convinced very early on that Armstrong was doping and Armstrong fans called people like me jealous and crazy and so on.
Now they all look very silly, don't they.
I don't know if that was my own "conspirational mindset", but everything I had guessed turned out to be true (or even worse than I had imagined).

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Originally Posted by pierricbross View Post
Except almost every cyclist said Armstrong and almost every other cyclist was doping and we had to hear something about it every major event until eventually actual evidence was gathered. In tennis you have only a few tennis players, none of them any good, and we rarely hear about it. I think Serena Williams' panic room farce was the last time doping was bought up seriously and by people who weren't terrible.
Nope. At the beginning, doping in cycling was only denounced by a few people. They were instantly denounced as "bitter", or "jealous", and their theories were dismissed.
It took a long time to get to the point where the idea of Armstrong being a doper was obvious to many, and denounced by several cyclists. Even then, many of them defended him or were afraid to talk against him.

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If you kept paying off corrupt doctors you set yourself up to be blackmailed for even more money and eventually the truth would leak out anyway. You'd have to pay big money and even then they could leak the information some years into the future.


What would you do then as a player? Kill them? This is the real world not a fantasy movie.
Don't laugh. Have you seen the latest news about Armstrong? Several people (including Tyler Hamilton) say they received death threats from him or his entourage.

Even without killing people, you can do them harm. People like Armstrong are hugely influential, they can turn your life into hell, and if you're a professional cyclist, make sure that you will never have a career. It IS truly a mafia out there.

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Originally Posted by Punky View Post
Everyone is blames everyone of doping without naming names, how much of this is really true and how much is due to jealousy of the other player?

i cant believe any of the top players is doping just cant.
Well, then you're in for a big disappointment someday.

I had the same attitude back in 1998, when the Festina affair broke out. I also thought that doping was marginal and that only people with no moral sense whatsoever, in other words, only the most despicable kind of people, would use doping. So obviously, none of my favourites could have been dopers, that was unimaginable.
I got angry whenever someone claimed that most cyclists were doper, how dared they say such things?, etc.

I have come a long, long way since.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:27 PM   #80
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
True.

But lest it be thought this is all conspiracy, here are the number of out of competition blood tests done in tennis....

2011: 21
2010: 10
2009: 0
2008: 0


Source: http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp


Just for clarity, this is the total number of tests done for all players in the entire world of top level professional tennis. Men and women, singles and doubles, main tour, challengers/itf level, Davis Cup, and some juniors/wheelchair also.

All those, and they did 31 blood tests in four years. That's about as many as a single top cyclist gets in a single year.


That is the difference between a sport that wants to eradicate doping, and one that clearly has no intention of even looking.
What is the definition of "Out of competition" drug/blood test? Do tennis players get test during competition whether it's ITF or ATP tournaments?

If that is the case, it's not quite fair to compare this figures with those of cyclists since there are cyclists like Armstrong who only in competition once a year while top tennis players are in tournaments 10 months out of a year.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:27 PM   #81
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by Kei_is_a_samurai View Post
"Finally, all the players I mentioned have tested positive. They were all Argentines. '

Belgian wonders especially on sudden absences of some champions like Nadal or Soderling:

"Look Robin Söderling ... He won the tournament in Bastad in 2011 and since then it no longer plays tennis. It is supposedly seriously ill while I'm sure he was unbeatable at the time. We can not overlook the fact that it is very suspicious! It reached the highest level of his career and the day after, it says I can not play tennis ... Me, it seems incredible.

You say "Oh, that's weird." There is still a lot of suspicious things that happen and it seems that the best have nothing. Just like anywhere, there are always people you can buy!
Wow, there are some serious accusations here.

After hearing about Armstrong today...god knows what's going on out there. Doping, drugs, (death) threats, corruption, etc.
Cycling is really sick, I hope tennis isn't anywhere near that.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:29 PM   #82
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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There are thousands of ex-players, coaches, trainers etc. The percentage of them saying ANYTHING doesn't even amount to statistical error.

If there were anything like an cycling situation here it stands to reason the conspiracy theorists would have more to go on than a washed up Rochus or trying to tie Agassi taking crystal meth to doping by analogy.

The thing about a conspiracy theorist is that no amount of an ABSENCE of evidence will ever mean anything to him.
I agree with you that shouting "criminals" should be backed up with evidence, hence until proven it's just speculations.

But that's what we do here, we're no police, we're speculating and we're not even accusing anyone. I personally would even understand the ATP hiding a top player nowadays, as the final goal is more important.
I'm sure for myself they aren't sponsoring it or helping it, on the contrary trying to cut it down, but i'm also sure it's happening and sometimes for tennis to live another day they would take unpopular decisions.

About the players and coaches not speaking out - they have no pressure to do so. Why would they?

The ones who never got doping have no proofs. The ones who did would get punished for it. Why would anyone do it anyway then?

Rochus is among the few who don't really care and doesn't actually say anything to put himself or anyone else in "court", so it will be speculations only until they get proven.

It's been the same way in cycling. Speculations, more speculations, more control, one man down, a second one, more speculations and finally the truth. If everyone would have stayed quiet it could have gone forever.

The public pressure is the only tool to keep the controlling bodies on their toes. If there isn't even a public control over this then we'll have Pfizer, GSK, Teva, etc. on the players' shirts tomorrow.

Often even wrong speculations are for the best, so who is right and who is wrong is hard to say, the only right thing is to speak up when you have your doubts. IMO
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:30 PM   #83
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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It's exactly the opposite. Believe me, there are tons of testimonies that tell about doping.

Go ahead and post tons of actual testimonies please from tennis professionals. I would be happy to see those tons that claim widespread doping in tennis similar to the situation in cycling.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:31 PM   #84
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Go ahead and post tons of actual testimonies please from tennis professionals. I would be happy to see those tons that claim widespread doping in tennis similar to the situation in cycling.
Such a desperate Nadaltard .
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:32 PM   #85
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by pierricbross View Post
tl;dr version: I was right about cycling like everyone else was, so I am right about tennis and no-one else is. If an athlete takes vitamins then they probably use PEDs. No such thing as independent organisations, may as well make doping legal.
Thank you for making fun of me and caricaturing my reasoning.

You are wrong on both accounts:

-You assume that I take credit for being right on cycling while "everyone else" thought the same. This is just not true. People who denounced doping in cycling were marginalized at first (and I did not believe them either at first), until it became so ridiculous that public opinion began to realize that doping in cycling was indeed widespread, or at least had been widespread.
But even then, a LOT of people would not accept it. Even when the USADA said they had lots of evidence against Armstrong, lots of Americans were crying out that he was innocent and it was a scandal how the media were treating him.

-You assume that I believe I'm the only one to say doping is probably widespread in all sports, including tennis ("I'm right and no one else is"). I'm very, very far from being the only one.


Now, regarding vitamins and PEDs, I believe you just purposefully misunderstood my point so I won't even discuss it.

And regarding independent bodies, no I don't believe it is very realistic to believe in that. That's my opinion and I don't think there's anything silly to it. Pessimistic maybe, I'd like to think, realistic rather, but it's not silly.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:37 PM   #86
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
Go ahead and post tons of actual testimonies please from tennis professionals. I would be happy to see those tons that claim widespread doping in tennis similar to the situation in cycling.
Go look for them yourself, if you really want to.
I have only one article in French right now, and no time to look for more.

http://www.rue89.com/rue89-sport/201...ait-pas-232477

Obviously when I say "tons", I'm exaggerating. Of course you won't find as many as in cycling, because cycling is about 10 years ahead in that regard. But there have already been quite a number of people who mentioned it. Usually they mention "recreational drugs", because it does not have the impact that "doping" has. But this is how it started in cycling too.

Now of course I am speculating, we all are. I just believe time will prove me right. Anyway, I won't be disappointed if it happens. If I turn out to be wrong, then it will be a pleasant surprise to see that tennis is much cleaner than cycling.

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Old 01-15-2013, 07:38 PM   #87
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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I agree with you that shouting "criminals" should be backed up with evidence, hence until proven it's just speculations.

But that's what we do here, we're no police, we're speculating and we're not even accusing anyone. I personally would even understand the ATP hiding a top player nowadays, as the final goal is more important.
I'm sure for myself they aren't sponsoring it or helping it, on the contrary trying to cut it down, but i'm also sure it's happening and sometimes for tennis to live another day they would take unpopular decisions.

About the players and coaches not speaking out - they have no pressure to do so. Why would they?

The ones who never got doping have no proofs. The ones who did would get punished for it. Why would anyone do it anyway then?

Rochus is among the few who don't really care and doesn't actually say anything to put himself or anyone else in "court", so it will be speculations only until they get proven.

It's been the same way in cycling. Speculations, more speculations, more control, one man down, a second one, more speculations and finally the truth. If everyone would have stayed quiet it could have gone forever.

The public pressure is the only tool to keep the controlling bodies on their toes. If there isn't even a public control over this then we'll have Pfizer, GSK, Teva, etc. on the players' shirts tomorrow.

Often even wrong speculations are for the best, so who is right and who is wrong is hard to say, the only right thing is to speak up when you have your doubts. IMO

What you just did was again engage in the conspiratorial mindset while initially saying you believe that to be problematic i.e. having your cake and eating it too.

Cycling was an an entirely different story. The level and quality of the denunciations was orders of magnitude greater and not just from peripheral figures in the sport. Why is it that of thousands of former players, coaches and trainers we have almost nothing like what Rochus is saying? Rochus is the only one who "doesn't care"? Perhaps Rochus is one with particularly sour grapes? Just as logical of course.

If you have a predisposition to buy his argument going into it, you will buy his argument. There is not ONE shred of evidence in his accusations.

It is extraordinarily difficult to have a massive enterprise which depends on THOUSANDS of people keeping silent with the virtual absence of leaks, evidence and denunciations.

The conspiratorial mindset at work.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:39 PM   #88
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Go look for them yourself, if you really want to.

I have only one article in French right now, and no time to look for more. Of course you won't find as many as in cycling, because cycling is about 10 years ahead in that regard.

http://http://www.rue89.com/rue89-sp...ait-pas-232477
page introuvable could u please re-post it?

It's clear there are many suggestions, hints and even clear accusations, otherwise we wouldn't be speaking about it at all.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:40 PM   #89
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

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Go look for them yourself, if you really want to.

I have only one article in French right now, and no time to look for more. Of course you won't find as many as in cycling, because cycling is about 10 years ahead in that regard.

http://http://www.rue89.com/rue89-sp...ait-pas-232477
The burden of proof is on the accuser mon ami. Your article didn't come up and I do read French.


If there are tons then you should easily be able to find many for us all to evaluate.

Of course, the conspiratorial mindset has a different standard for what "tons" and "evidence" means.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:43 PM   #90
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Default Re: Christophe Rochus wants doping to be made legal

Armstrong case should be a good example to all those dopers around. They will be stripped off of all their accomplishments and banned from sports forever.
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