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Old 02-03-2013, 02:26 AM   #166
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Radiohead's "Creep" as covered by Lance

Wtf?:Very cleverly edited.Brilliant thinking


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Old 02-03-2013, 03:24 AM   #167
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong admits to Doping

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Originally Posted by Noleta View Post
If they didn't need epo to win one of the physically hardest sports,how do you explain all this doping cases then?Rasmussen yet another one confessing.
They might need to win now in practical terms, but if nobody doped people would still win.

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Operation Fuentes,yeah read about it,he still refuses to give the names on his list,even the police won't give away the names,something I don't get.
Operacion Puerto.

Police can't give names, it's the judges who have to release them. And they won't, because there is too much a stake. They risk breaking the bubble people like you are in (most people, really) are in, and exposing football, tennis etc. So they'd rather just use cycling as a safe scapegoat.

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We can debate all day,but cycling is more known for doping scandals than it is for the actual sport.And I still stand by my opinion that tennis is a clean sport in general.Not saying that it is 100% so,there will always be doping in any sport unfortunately.
Of course cycling is known for its doping scandals: because, unlike other sports like tennis, it actually makes an effort to catch dopers. If you don't catch anyone, there are no scandals.

And again, I still haven't heard any reason to think tennis is so clean.

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There is no double standards imoIt's all about reputations
Oh I see, so reputations are more important than the actual truth?

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,and cycling is worse in that department,they can't trust anyone wining on sheer power without any drugs involved.And more will continue using,the punishments are not that scary.Look at Vinokourov,was caught,got a couple of years,then there he was at the Olympics
The punishments might not be that scary, but they're still stricter than in other sports. Look at football. Pep Guardiola tests flaming positive for nandrolone while playing in Italy, somehow gets away with it to become the world's most respected manager.
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:55 AM   #168
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Of course,eventually someone will cross the line first lol,but without the ability to be spectacular,gather that's why the majority are on the juice,to use your favorite slogan.

Yes,I gather they want to protect first of all,the bigger clubs,lots of money involved and politics,especially in Spain.

You keep asking me for reasons,well what's your for being so damn sure tennis players are on the juice?Is it your anger at Cycling being the scapegoat?Or you want another sport being hit by this scandal?

I'll say it again,for me tennis is more about technique,fines and being a quick thinker,then there is the fitness part,are you saying player can suddenly win bigger matches based only on let's say EPO?Sorry but I can't believe it,if that means I'm living in a bubble so be it.

Who says the Vinokourovs and the Vironques are not using something again?Especially the latter,who won the red jersey like 7 times?

Reputation is very important in any aspect,and you can't deny Cycling's one is terminalThere are ppl out there who like me used to love watching the sport,especially the mountain stages,but scandal after one,makes it harder to watch thinking that rider who's going up the mountain so fast,isn't using something.

As for Pep,i'm sure using banned substance have nothing to do with him being a good coach,or do this drugs makes you smarter,like the movie limitless?


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Old 02-03-2013, 09:23 AM   #169
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong admits to Doping

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Originally Posted by Noleta View Post
You keep asking me for reasons,well what's your for being so damn sure tennis players are on the juice?Is it your anger at Cycling being the scapegoat?Or you want another sport being hit by this scandal?
I want my two favourite sports to be as clean as possible. As it is, one of them is fighting doping while the other one isn't.

The ATP, the ITF and international organisations have constantly shown a lenient treatment towards tennis when it comes to doping offences. Guillermo Cañas, Guillermo Coria, Mariano Puerta are just three of the Argentine players that stormed the clay circuit in the early 2000s who tested positive in doping tests. Yet all of them received reduced bans. Had it been cycling cases, you can be sure they would have got the maximum sentence.

In fact, one can compare Puerta's case with Contador's. They tested positive for the same substance, clenbuterol. Yet while Puerta got a reduced ban of 9 months, Contador got the maximum 2 years. But that's not all. He tested positive again, in a slam final at that. A second offence means life ban from the sport, but no, the ITF ruled that "the amount of etilefrine detected in the positive drugs test was too small to have any effect on his performance", and his ban was reduced to 2 years from the Court of Arbitration for Sport. That was exactly the argumentation Contador's defence used, and in his case (despite him being no second-time offender) the same court ruled it was no reason to reduce the ban.

There have been other positive cases of top 100 players: Odesnik, Kendrick, Minar, Volandri, Beck... but people forget. Apparently, doping is not wrong when tennis players do it.

So yes, I have good reasons to suspect of tennis's reputation as a clean sport, of the ITF and the ATP as honest organisations who fight doping in their sport and of the fair and equal treatment of all sports on the international scene.

Quote:
I'll say it again,for me tennis is more about technique,fines and being a quick thinker,then there is the fitness part,are you saying player can suddenly win bigger matches based only on let's say EPO?Sorry but I can't believe it,if that means I'm living in a bubble so be it.
Am I saying a player can improve his performance by being able to run more and faster, hit harder, jump higher, recover more quickly? You're damn right I'm saying that.

Didn't Djokovic improve his results drastically when he became fitter and was able to endure long matches without a drop in his fitness level?

Quote:
Who says the Vinokourovs and the Vironques are not using something again?Especially the latter,who won the red jersey like 7 times?
I don't know who's saying that. I certainly am not.

Quote:
Reputation is very important in any aspect,and you can't deny Cycling's one is terminalThere are ppl out there who like me used to love watching the sport,especially the mountain stages,but scandal after one,makes it harder to watch thinking that rider who's going up the mountain so fast,isn't using something.
What I am saying is that reputation is not a good benchmark to use when one wants to assess the true nature of something. Jimmy Levine had a fantastic reputation for years. Wouldn't it have been wiser to have doubted his reputation a bit, hence believing what the children he abused were saying about him?

Let me use another analogy:

In a country, we have Party A, which has been constantly targeted by police and judicial investigations that have revealed widespread corruption among its members. The press are relentless on them.

Then we have Party B, which has not been monitored half as closely as Party A and has therefore had less scandals, despite the fact that members of this party have been found to have committed the same crimes as the members of Party A. The press, for some reason, are not as hard with them.

Party A would have a much worse reputation than Party B, but would you be justified in basing your assessment of both parties on the reputation they have? Would it be ok to go "oh, Party A sure has a bad image. I'm voting for Party B, they have a better image so they must be better". Wouldn't that be intellectually dishonest?

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As for Pep,i'm sure using banned substance have nothing to do with him being a good coach,or do this drugs makes you smarter,like the movie limitless?
Where did I say using banned substances made him a good coach? You keep putting words in my mouth that I never said. I said he is a univerally respected manager, despite testing positive while being a player. Cyclists who test positive are everything but universally respected as managers later. Double standards again.
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:03 AM   #170
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong set for tell-all interview with Oprah Winfrey

Why would the mods wait for a thread to drop to like page 5 to merge this one with it? Lol.
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:13 PM   #171
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong admits to Doping

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
I want my two favourite sports to be as clean as possible. As it is, one of them is fighting doping while the other one isn't.
Fair enough.Both are doing something about it,it's just that Cycling need to fight it harder,to clean the image of the sport,and for the simple fact that the chances of athletes using are much higher in such brutal sport.

Quote:
The ATP, the ITF and international organisations have constantly shown a lenient treatment towards tennis when it comes to doping offences. Guillermo Cañas, Guillermo Coria, Mariano Puerta are just three of the Argentine players that stormed the clay circuit in the early 2000s who tested positive in doping tests. Yet all of them received reduced bans. Had it been cycling cases, you can be sure they would have got the maximum sentence.
Because Cycling is under immense pressure and scrutiny,for all the wring reasons,and i do believe Armstrong was helped by some,constantly avoiding being caught,how did that happen?

I only know about the Canas case tbh

Quote:
In fact, one can compare Puerta's case with Contador's. They tested positive for the same substance, clenbuterol. Yet while Puerta got a reduced ban of 9 months, Contador got the maximum 2 years. But that's not all. He tested positive again, in a slam final at that. A second offence means life ban from the sport, but no, the ITF ruled that "the amount of etilefrine detected in the positive drugs test was too small to have any effect on his performance", and his ban was reduced to 2 years from the Court of Arbitration for Sport. That was exactly the argumentation Contador's defence used, and in his case (despite him being no second-time offender) the same court ruled it was no reason to reduce the ban.
Yeah,Contador apparently ate a infected meat or something like that i read,bit a like Gasquet kissing a girlYet a cyclist will be punished more,a lot of that got to do with the reputation,you might think that's not fair,but that's the reality,Cycling are corking hard on damage limitation,and they want to set an example by punishing each rider who might've taken something,being it on purpose or bad luck.

Quote:
There have been other positive cases of top 100 players: Odesnik, Kendrick, Minar, Volandri, Beck... but people forget. Apparently, doping is not wrong when tennis players do it.

So yes, I have good reasons to suspect of tennis's reputation as a clean sport, of the ITF and the ATP as honest organisations who fight doping in their sport and of the fair and equal treatment of all sports on the international scene.
See this is the first time i read about those names,i knew about Odesnik though.No one said it's alright for tennis players to dopeMaybe ITF/ATP are trying to work on the doping issue quietly,without the media knowing?Sometimes it helps when things stay indoors IYWIM.



Quote:
Am I saying a player can improve his performance by being able to run more and faster, hit harder, jump higher, recover more quickly? You're damn right I'm saying that.

Didn't Djokovic improve his results drastically when he became fitter and was able to endure long matches without a drop in his fitness level?
Yet all those names you mentioned got caught,didn't suddenly become multiple GS winners,unlike Cycling,where you can suddenly win stage after another

His diet change helped a lot,but before that he was still a talented player.It's not like he came from nowhere,and jumped straight to number one?



Quote:
What I am saying is that reputation is not a good benchmark to use when one wants to assess the true nature of something. Jimmy Levine had a fantastic reputation for years. Wouldn't it have been wiser to have doubted his reputation a bit, hence believing what the children he abused were saying about him?

Let me use another analogy:

In a country, we have Party A, which has been constantly targeted by police and judicial investigations that have revealed widespread corruption among its members. The press are relentless on them.

Then we have Party B, which has not been monitored half as closely as Party A and has therefore had less scandals, despite the fact that members of this party have been found to have committed the same crimes as the members of Party A. The press, for some reason, are not as hard with them.

Party A would have a much worse reputation than Party B, but would you be justified in basing your assessment of both parties on the reputation they have? Would it be ok to go "oh, Party A sure has a bad image. I'm voting for Party B, they have a better image so they must be better". Wouldn't that be intellectually dishonest?
You mean Jimmy Savile?

You make sense,but image and reputation are everything nowadays

Many things can be involved,if the press have advantages for protecting Party B,politics can be equally corrupt.



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Where did I say using banned substances made him a good coach? You keep putting words in my mouth that I never said. I said he is a univerally respected manager, despite testing positive while being a player. Cyclists who test positive are everything but universally respected as managers later. Double standards again.
If i was putting words into your mouth,you'll agree with me,no?

So what?Richard Vironque gets treated like a hero,despite what happened in 98Where is this double standard?
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:15 PM   #172
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:39 PM   #173
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong admits to Doping

I am a busy man.

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Originally Posted by Noleta View Post
Fair enough.Both are doing something about it,it's just that Cycling need to fight it harder,to clean the image of the sport,and for the simple fact that the chances of athletes using are much higher in such brutal sport.
That is not true. And if you say it is, you should offer some good reasons why that is so.

It has been revealed that the Real Sociedad football team was under a programme from Dr Fuentes during the year in which they almost won the Spanish league out of nowhere. Xabi Alonso showed himself to the world that year.

On Fuentes's papers one can also read the name "Milan".

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Because Cycling is under immense pressure and scrutiny,for all the wring reasons,and i do believe Armstrong was helped by some,constantly avoiding being caught,how did that happen?
He was helped by the UCI and had access to state-of-the-art doping technology and substances.

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I only know about the Canas case tbh
They all tested positive, I'm not making things up.

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Yeah,Contador apparently ate a infected meat or something like that i read,bit a like Gasquet kissing a girlYet a cyclist will be punished more,a lot of that got to do with the reputation,you might think that's not fair,but that's the reality,Cycling are corking hard on damage limitation,and they want to set an example by punishing each rider who might've taken something,being it on purpose or bad luck.
Of course it's not fair. A cheater is a cheater is a cheater. They should all be punished equally. By the way, international anti-doping law provides for equal punishment for all dopers, it's just that tennis authorities are much softer.

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See this is the first time i read about those names,i knew about Odesnik though.No one said it's alright for tennis players to dopeMaybe ITF/ATP are trying to work on the doping issue quietly,without the media knowing?Sometimes it helps when things stay indoors IYWIM.
I'm sorry, but that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard... You seem to be willing to give tennis a free pass for things that would have cycling crucified on the spot.

Quote:
Yet all those names you mentioned got caught,didn't suddenly become multiple GS winners,unlike Cycling,where you can suddenly win stage after another
What.

You seem to be saying doping can make an average cyclist start winning big races, but tennis players don't see their performances improve from the use of PEDs to the same degree. That is another completely baseless assumption.

As far as I could tell, Mr Mariano Puerta went from being a 27-year-old nobody whose bigger career achievements were a couple of 250s won and whose best result in a slam ever was a 3rd round at the French in 2000 to suddenly reaching the final of the FO... where he was busted.

Incidentally, he was never stripped of that runner-up result. That would be like Contador getting to keep the TdF title in which he tested positive. Moar, moar double standards...

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His diet change helped a lot,but before that he was still a talented player.It's not like he came from nowhere,and jumped straight to number one?
Why are you so confused? Did I ever say he came from nowhere and jumped straight to number one?

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You mean Jimmy Savile?
Yes. I'm terrible, terrible with names...

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You make sense,but image and reputation are everything nowadays
Shameful. We should strive to change that.

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Many things can be involved,if the press have advantages for protecting Party B,politics can be equally corrupt.
But then we would have no good reasons for supporting Party B.

Similarly, we have no good reasons for supporting tennis's doping situation just because it has a better reputation.

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If i was putting words into your mouth,you'll agree with me,no?
Not if I don't agree with the words you're putting into my mouth.

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So what?Richard Vironque gets treated like a hero,despite what happened in 98Where is this double standard?
Where exactly does Richard Virenque get treated like a hero???
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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:03 PM   #174
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong admits to Doping

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Where exactly does Richard Virenque get treated like a hero???
In France. Sir Wiggins said so in his jingoistic "brits don't dope" piece for the Guardian.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:45 AM   #175
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Already said why i think so,as a Cyclist,you have more advantages if you dope,hence why many take that risk

Yes,and I'm sure more names going to be revealed,but bigger names will be protected i fear.

Yeah,you can imagine why,a Cancer survivor,suddenly winning the hardest sporting event in the world.However he did give many who were dealing with that horrible sickness,hope.

Lots of things in life are not fair.It is what it is.

No,you missed my point completely,I said if they could work thing out internally,that will be better for the image of the sport.

And I still stand by my opinion,a Cyclist can benefit much more from doping than tennis players

Vironque is a star in France,the same ppl who organised a witch hunt against Armstrong,rightly so,but the double standards....




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Old 02-06-2013, 02:42 PM   #176
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong set for tell-all interview with Oprah Winfrey

Aurélien Duval is a paria in France. Like so many.

And doping does not enhance technique and quick thinking? Is that a joke?
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:49 PM   #177
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Aurélien Duval is a paria in France. Like so many.

And doping does not enhance technique and quick thinking? Is that a joke?
Okay then,I should try get my hands on some banned methods,as obviously you don't need talent.


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Old 02-06-2013, 04:42 PM   #178
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong set for tell-all interview with Oprah Winfrey

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Already said why i think so,as a Cyclist,you have more advantages if you dope,hence why many take that risk

Yes,and I'm sure more names going to be revealed,but bigger names will be protected i fear.

Yeah,you can imagine why,a Cancer survivor,suddenly winning the hardest sporting event in the world.However he did give many who were dealing with that horrible sickness,hope.

Lots of things in life are not fair.It is what it is.

No,you missed my point completely,I said if they could work thing out internally,that will be better for the image of the sport.

And I still stand by my opinion,a Cyclist can benefit much more from doping than tennis players

Vironque is a star in France,the same ppl who organised a witch hunt against Armstrong,rightly so,but the double standards....
I feel we're running in circles.

I get what you mean about Virenque. Yes, the French populace have shown some mind-boggling instances of hipocrisy when it comes to cycling and doping. We've been documenting that on the Cycling Thread.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:44 PM   #179
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong set for tell-all interview with Oprah Winfrey

Jose, do you think the judge will give WADA access to Fuentes' blood bags? Apparently a decision will be made on Friday.
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:44 PM   #180
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong set for tell-all interview with Oprah Winfrey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noleta View Post
Okay then,I should try get my hands on some banned methods,as obviously you don't need talent.
When did he say that??
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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