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Old 12-31-2012, 02:23 AM   #91
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

@freddienielsen
Me during match: Why do we have an umpire that can't speak English? Referee: Why did u come to Noumea when u know conditions are like this?
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:52 AM   #92
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

I will miss the Morrocan's tour, only Rabat doesn't make great sense
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:37 AM   #93
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

yeah it was a great one for the claycourters indeed
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:41 PM   #94
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

if there were still many challengers, there would be no sleazy Federer propaganda which caused the weak-era opponents to surrender 6 years ago. Weak players could hang around in challengers, if there is increased salary.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:43 PM   #95
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

i had so many thoughts on this topic i needed to write an article, cos it would be too much just for a post

i hope it's coherent enough to read, i had really a stream of thoughts

http://www.tennisalternative.com/nat...s--rn1939.html
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:51 PM   #96
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

Great article Nathii. There are many interesting issues about it like the drastical amount of Challenger events , the fact that NOBODY in Europe is interested on buying the license that Belgrade might be releasing in case the tournament is cancelled.
The fact that would be advisory for small Challenger and Future to include hospitality. Some histories mentioned like the one that AJ wrote in this forum about Millman sounds terrific.
I don't agree that tennis is sport for rich people. I don't know how is everywhere but at least in Argentina middle class people can get access to tennis.
To be honest I don't know anything about that betting thing that you are mentioning but I reckon that you are really well informed about it and it's something really to worry about that can finally ruin our beloved sport

PS. Something that you forgot and that many people attacked Latso. And it's the fact that , may it be possible that the ATP is looking forward to reduce the amount of pro tennis players reducint the amount of Challenger and Future tournaments? Do you really believe that ATP is losing control of the amount of Future and Challenger tournaments on the tour? In 2014 we are really going to find out many of these actual questions when the new ATP calendar will be released. But looks like ATP is kinda looking forward to reduce the number of tournaments and in consecuence the amount of pro players.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:28 AM   #97
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

Unfortunately this piece is one sided and full of disinformation, based on the lack of facts and information.

There are few points of it, which i would like to understand more - GSDF (Grand Slam Development Fund). What is it exactly, how much money is given away and for what.
It reads pretty much as - a fund from ITF, the money from which go to the local TAs for them to develop young players.

If that is so, the answer of Di Palermo is explaining perfectly what we need to know - "Growing the sport is more a federation goal nation by nation. ATP is about the pros. AND the future.".
Federetions get money from the GSDF for them to support young talents.

How much money is this? Per player? How long should these go in the players' pockets? 3 years? 5 years? How long?


Now about all the betting nonsenses....

First of all the bookies, in their huge majority buy the livescores from companies who do this - have personel country by country, with special equipment who delivers the results point by point.

Naturally, these people get paid, their equipment costs money and that's probably why their right to have exclusivity on the product is protected, otherwise along with the brother who calls the lady on the phone for results, we'd all have to get results from this same lady over the phone.

Now we can just open the internet and get these anytime we want.


About the shady mafiosi making big bets on Futures...legends from Sheherezade.

Bookies offer Futures for betting extremely rarely and have very low limits on the bets. For example you couldn't put more than 100$ on a match from Futures tournament in pretty much any normal, licensed, regular bookmaker.

Because of the limits, as a first, then because the odds for a match have a serious amount of juice for them (especially at lower level events) - the bookies can't get exposed. So for them to "control" results, for them to be exposed of losing big in such kind of events is utter lack of information and a naive read of the whole betting situation.


Do you know why the betting syndicates don't have paid tennis tipsters? Because the turnovers they can make are insignificant. On rare occasions one can bet more than 500$ even on Grand Slam matches, so it's pointless compared to all the football and basketball opportunities, where the limits are in thousands, even at the most regular bookies.


Now, we cut the whole bookie thing, because it has nothing to do with tennis and we get back to ATP, ITF, Challengers and Futures.

My personal position on why would there be a limited number of tournaments, with a limited prize money, as stated in several posts in this thread is because no one needs the older players to lurk around for ages, while we need young players to develop.

This won't happen with more prize money and more tournaments. The only way for it to happen is subsidizing the youngsters through the federations and limit their earnings from tournaments.

this way youngsters would have more money to develop and older players would retire at a normal stage of their careers.

The other way is to multiply the tournaments, rise the prize money significantly and put a cap on the age of pros, for example stop them when they reach 30 years of age.

But, in the latter case we would have 10000+ "professionals", at a semi amateur level, which would be a mass, from which it would be impossible a real talent to emerge, considering there would be hundreds per week making the same points as him, despite being several times worse level.


This would lead to guys emerging at 27-28 years of age, emerging and plummeting back in a matter of months, as there will be a huge number of them.

We won't have established role models who stay in top 10 for years, rather a mass of 200 players popping in and out weekly.

We won't have the super heroes that are the face of tennis world wide, who are the engine driving kids to start playing tennis instead of any other sport.


What should be the number of players making a living from tennis? Very smart and genuine question. The answer of which is far more complicated than it looks and the answer of which the managers of tennis have evaluated being 200, which for best or worse is making tennis look like the way it is today.

Any drastic change might lead to unexpected and most of the time terrible results for the game. That's why there are ppl thinking about this, trying to monitor, forecast and work toward making tennis the best way possible.

About the fact that there are 20+yo athletes not figuring out the answers of life...well, this will be the same whatever the decisions taken by the people in charge.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:30 AM   #98
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

this belgrade will be awful. balazs has semifinals points to defend there
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:47 AM   #99
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

latso is entitled to have own opinion on a lot of the things, but i just need to correct that on my pretty much unused bet 365 account (i use it to watch streams) my futures matches limit is approx. $550. If we add to it set betting or overs/unders placed within 2 minutes (later odds collapse or match is removed), then we have a nice amount coming from one fresh account. If a few people are doing it simultaneously, then it increases to a nearly money prize of a whole futures.
Maybe the limits depend on the country, in which case latso and I can be both true about what we say. What I can say only is that I have seen such actions take place. Sadly, I can't say which matches these were, because MTF can be sometimes read by different people, and I don't want players from the depths of ranks to be investigated (even if turn out innocent in the end). I only pointed out the potential danger. Apparently, if tennis betting was not profitable for the bookmakers, they would be closing it instead of expanding.

As for the Slam funding, I don't know how much they are giving per year, but I know mandatory housing either costs ITF nothing, or very little. Especially that it was tested and working fine at some American tournaments (challengers, maybe some futures too).

I suppose they are building futures in Africa, which is obviously very nice and thoughtful, but at the same time we have also European federations that struggle...

For instance Dimitrov - handsome boy, it was easy for him to sign sponsor contracts when he was one of the best juniors, and the "new Federer" was fantastic PR. Has he received any ITF support money?
Because another Bulgarian talented junior, Todor Enev (finished year behind Roddick in juniors) wasn't as lucky as Grisha and faded into nowhere.

This is why I think what officials say about supporting young players is far-fetched.

But of course, you can have own opinion. My job as a journalist is to find holes in that "perfect picture" of tennis we have, just because there is something as exciting as the big 4.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:26 AM   #100
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
latso is entitled to have own opinion on a lot of the things, but i just need to correct that on my pretty much unused bet 365 account (i use it to watch streams) my futures matches limit is approx. $550. If we add to it set betting or overs/unders placed within 2 minutes (later odds collapse or match is removed), then we have a nice amount coming from one fresh account. If a few people are doing it simultaneously, then it increases to a nearly money prize of a whole futures.
Maybe the limits depend on the country, in which case latso and I can be both true about what we say. What I can say only is that I have seen such actions take place. Sadly, I can't say which matches these were, because MTF can be sometimes read by different people, and I don't want players from the depths of ranks to be investigated (even if turn out innocent in the end). I only pointed out the potential danger. Apparently, if tennis betting was not profitable for the bookmakers, they would be closing it instead of expanding.

As for the Slam funding, I don't know how much they are giving per year, but I know mandatory housing either costs ITF nothing, or very little. Especially that it was tested and working fine at some American tournaments (challengers, maybe some futures too).

I suppose they are building futures in Africa, which is obviously very nice and thoughtful, but at the same time we have also European federations that struggle...

For instance Dimitrov - handsome boy, it was easy for him to sign sponsor contracts when he was one of the best juniors, and the "new Federer" was fantastic PR. Has he received any ITF support money?
Because another Bulgarian talented junior, Todor Enev (finished year behind Roddick in juniors) wasn't as lucky as Grisha and faded into nowhere.

This is why I think what officials say about supporting young players is far-fetched.

But of course, you can have own opinion. My job as a journalist is to find holes in that "perfect picture" of tennis we have, just because there is something as exciting as the big 4.
Nathaliia, please tell me how do you know your limit for betting on Futures, because i don't know how to check mine...

Let me help you - you have no idea how much it is. First of all because it is a case by case situation in the bookies. The limits are different tournament by tournament, match by match.

If you try to go around your limits, whatever the magical ways you describe - you will not get winnings back and often you'll be stripped off your stake as well, so please, you are indeed a smart person, so don't try to invent stuff to cover the nonsenses in your article.

I fully understand that "everything going smooth in tennis" is not exactly what anyone would read, but inventing issues for the sake of making an article popular is worse than even writing BS, but sincerely...


Tennis betting is indeed profitable for the bookies and they do expand it, because they have set their rules, which don't allow scammers to expose them by cheating/fixing matches.

Hence, fixing on Futures level is bollocks.

Mandatory housing costs quite a lot actually. That's also why the +H tournaments give more points.
It's simple math. Try to check how many players are in a Futures tournament, with the doubles, with eventual ladies' part of the draw (but even without), multiply the rooms by players, by days, then calculate the 3 meals per day for X number of days and you get approximately as much as the prize money for the smallest tournaments.
So it does indeed cost a lot and it does cost a lot of work for the administration of a tournament.

But that's not the issue, we all want them all to be +H, mandatory is possible, even though it's not possible everywhere, as at some places you'll have also transportation costs, etc.


"We have European federations that struggle" - err, no, we have not

Dimitrov found sponsors Because he was good and not - became good coz he found sponsors.

Enev couldn't transfer his junior level into ATP, smth that happens to numerous good juniors and there's nothing anyone could do about that.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:32 AM   #101
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

I don't know what kind of weird bookmakers you use, Latso, but Nathaliaa is perfectly right.

As for the livescoring rights, I think it is absolutely pathetic that these are enforced so tightly. I was even ejected from a tournament for playing around too much with my phone, the security guys thought I was transmitting scores. It seems like a bad case of negotiating by the ATP/ITF, they were so tempted by the money that the accepted any condition to get the deal signed.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:25 PM   #102
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

Nathii, your info about Dornbirn was interesting ... and very sad , but your article in your link rather fits another thread imo where I will link it by the way :

Increasing the prize money in challengers : how to do that ?

because imo there's nothing in your article about the fact that challengers are disappearing.

Your main point is the players' welfare and betting temptations, which imo rather fits the other thread.

Personally I strongly disagree with the title of your article "Where does the tennis money go if it doesn't go to tennis?"

because I don't think there's enough money in tennis apart from the top-level, and no I don't think that the ATP is the only responsible for that : the main responsible imo is the market. The ATP, ITF ... can try to make things to orientate the market, yes, but anyway the market is much more powerful than any organizations.

I think the money which goes to betting is not a money spent for tennis but a money spent for ... money. The question of the temptation for players to catch some of this money is of course a major question but you can't include that money in a pool of "tennis money".

Personally I think that not enough money goes to tennis, it would be great imo for lower ranked and young players if the marketting could be improved, including having more place on the shirt for sponsors ... but at the moment the problem imo is that not enough money goes to tennis, I can't agree with your title.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:42 PM   #103
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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I don't know what kind of weird bookmakers you use, Latso, but Nathaliaa is perfectly right.

As for the livescoring rights, I think it is absolutely pathetic that these are enforced so tightly. I was even ejected from a tournament for playing around too much with my phone, the security guys thought I was transmitting scores. It seems like a bad case of negotiating by the ATP/ITF, they were so tempted by the money that the accepted any condition to get the deal signed.
about what?

She mentioned bet365 and i took it for all my examples.

But i'm familiar with almost all bookies and i'm positive aboutwhat i'm saying.

Very familiar with the issue, unlike you and Nathalia.

And the ejection for playing with your phone is BS of the highest order. Go tell these stories to younger and stupider audiences...
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:07 PM   #104
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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And the ejection for playing with your phone is BS of the highest order. Go tell these stories to younger and stupider audiences...
you obviously havent been to a tennis event
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:11 PM   #105
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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you obviously havent been to a tennis event
i have. and they don't get you out for "playing with your phone", but for actually sending livescores.

or betting live.

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