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Old 12-29-2012, 11:54 PM   #76
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
You're such a mad crank I can't even tell if you're being rhetorical or asking genuine questions.
damn, i can't figure in what way you mean "crank"

Anyhow, the questions aren't rhetorical at all, you know why? - coz neither i, you or anyone else around know the exact answers.

The possible answers are two - 1. Because the ATP are thieves and all they want is to ruin tennis forever and ever (which is the 95% of the public's answer in such boards, Which is already a solid proof it's utter BS)

or 2. The truth.

Some wild guess would include - you can't have too many CHs for such a small number of players. The more CHs you have, the lower the cut, the lower the level.
If you double the CHs you will have main draw 700s, 800 ranked players.

What stays for Futures? Amateurs like me would get a chance to become professional and play for real money and points, simply coz there won't be enough players interested in all tournaments.

You can't just spread those pro tournaments randomly wherever a company decides to bring one up. Few hundred thousands are in the possibilities of millions of companies.

If you double the prize money up what happens? Aside the fact it's not smth to do with just a flick, but besides this, if you double up the money you'll have journeymen not even trying to do more.

If you raise the lower level and keep the ATP tour money the same you'll have an uncontrollable mess of several times more players at a several times lower level.


Maybe this gibberish is far off and has nothing to do with reality, but reality is that the ATP is working in direction of the sport's best, they are there to make things evolve in a positive way and all things happen for a reason.

Reasons for which many people have been thinking, discussing, making statements, stats, making surveys, etc.

There is a structure, which involves players in it (the Players' Council), 10 guys from the top, the middle, the far end, the doubles, etc.
Do they all gather and split the bribes/black money/whatever?

The point is - ATP might not be the most competent organ, there might be others who would do better than them. How much better you think? 5% more, 10% more in figures at the end of the season?
Do you think anyone in the World could make a miracle and make more than f.e. 10% better (we don't even know what means better in this case, but anyway)?
So, is 10% more of whatever smth that crucial? This one is rhetorical indeed.

Bottom line is that if smth is done or keeps being undone - Ther Are Reasons for it. And the professionals know what they are. We don't know and we're stupid enough to believe we can figure out great ways just by thinking 3 minutes (some of us don't even take 3 seconds) on the subject.

That's what is annoying.

Guys like you, Duong and many others who obviously have the capacity to think shouldn't take the easy road, especially on transparently obvious matters, like - in a multimillion business things happen for a reason, always. Not by chance, not by lack of thinking, not by coincidence.

Lost of Challengers missing from the first third of the season. What's the suggestion? Someone is doing smth on purpose to cancel tennis?
Someone is doing smth on purpose to bankrupt young talents?

What's the suggestion? Someone is not doing his job well enough to save tennis? How do we prove that? Do we know all the obstacles? We don't even know the rules of this game.

So what i say is - people should use their brains harder and try to overcome this natural urge for jumping to easy conclusions. That's all.

Again - i'm no part in the whole thing, except from being a fan of the sport. I'd take this ride even defending politicians f.e., which is a harder one usually, due to the bigger mass of ppl who "know-it-all" about politics, compared to the tennis (and in this case business) experts.
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:23 AM   #77
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

cranky = grumpy.

No one is saying the ATP is doing anything on purpose. Merely that they appear to be doing nothing.

I don't think anyone outside the organisation knows exactly where the ATP stands when it comes to licensing but the varying number from year to year suggests they're not too strict at Challenger level.

You're correct that we don't know a lot of what goes on behind the scenes but again that's the ATP's fault. What is their vision for the Challenger tour? What are they doing to achieve it? They don't even communicate with hardcore fans. That's one of the problems.

They players' rep went on twitter to ask people how many players should be able to earn a living from the sport, as if to suggest he didn't have a clue himself.

I don't think it's too unreasonable to think a sport as successful as tennis should be able to support something in the region of 250-300 players who are actually earning a decent living after expenses.

People have already proposed some simple solutions that may help matters such as mandatory hospitality and better packaging to attract sponsors. Hardly revolutionary stuff and not exactly a bunch of children ranting against an organisation they don't understand for no reason at all, as you seem to suggest.
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:39 AM   #78
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

latso, trolling like a boss. Hence I can't be bothered with legit responses. If he had a clue about what was going on at all, then I would.

The gap between Futures and ATP main tour hahahahahahahaha, yes winning all those Futures then come straight on the main tour which wouldn't happen as there aren't enough points. Even if that happened, the gap is too large and they'd lose even more.

Doesn't even have a clue that all the expenses for the vast majority of players are funded by themselves. So yes, making 15K a year is a great return.
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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:18 AM   #79
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
cranky = grumpy.

No one is saying the ATP is doing anything on purpose. Merely that they appear to be doing nothing.

I don't think anyone outside the organisation knows exactly where the ATP stands when it comes to licensing but the varying number from year to year suggests they're not too strict at Challenger level.

You're correct that we don't know a lot of what goes on behind the scenes but again that's the ATP's fault. What is their vision for the Challenger tour? What are they doing to achieve it? They don't even communicate with hardcore fans. That's one of the problems.

They players' rep went on twitter to ask people how many players should be able to earn a living from the sport, as if to suggest he didn't have a clue himself.

I don't think it's too unreasonable to think a sport as successful as tennis should be able to support something in the region of 250-300 players who are actually earning a decent living after expenses.

People have already proposed some simple solutions that may help matters such as mandatory hospitality and better packaging to attract sponsors. Hardly revolutionary stuff and not exactly a bunch of children ranting against an organisation they don't understand for no reason at all, as you seem to suggest.
Fair enough.

This is the kind of conversation that is normal, which have suggestions (which are made every time someone sees smth very alarming going on at CH level, i've done several myself, you know very well), we agree that we don't know much about what we are talking about and we don't just throw accusations based on nothing.

The players' representative has made a micro survey for himself, pretty much knowing what the response will be (anyone would jump on the easy - 500+ should live easily from tennis f.e.) and that's smth that actually says to me that it's a matter they discuss at these meetings, they have arguments, they're working to make things better.

It's not going to work in favor in one or the other part all the time obviously, so there will be people unhappy with the decisions, but that's how it goes in any company.

And the best point you make - it's ATP's fault that fans have no idea how things work. That's absolutely correct and that's their main fault if you ask me.

It's probably never been a problem for them, as they most probably explain things in details to the player's council and for them this is enough, as they are the people on the other side of the barrier when it comes to discussions leading to decisions.

If there was a fans' council (which maybe isn't the worst idea), which has even a 1% vote in the decisions, things would be much clearer.

All this doesn't mean they do smth wrong, or they aren't working toward better sponsorship packages, or hospitality (which aside of giving free lodging and food also brings more points to the tournaments offering it), etc.

Players, who have are involved in the whole thing - they know what and why is going on. From Caujolle's (or what was this Marseille guy's name) words about Fed we understood that Djokovic has been doing somekind of presentation in front of tournament directors at 22 and the French guy was very impressed by him.

I have no idea - who organized this, what is the purpose, what has it led to?

There are things happening in tennis that fans don't know. As a fan - i want to know, so i think fans should be involved.

But again it doesn't mean anyone is doing smth bad or whatever. It's just the lack of info to fans, which the ATP doesn't care much about.

About being cranky - fair as well. Try to answer the stupidities about of Sombrero or AJ and be jolly...
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:58 AM   #80
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
I read the Alcaide story and there is nothing one can do against injuries. What's the CH tour problem with Alcaide's situation?

A solid top 100? He went up to 195th in 2010 and the following 2011 was a disaster taking him back to 388th. That's not a solid top 100 at 25.

Maybe he was lazy or tired of it all, maybe he wasn't mentally strong enough, maybe he was a gambler - why would a guy's sad tennis career be always the fault of someone else?

I know Robert and Devilder have their places in tennis and i'm not saying they should go away or something. But this is the level of guys playing CH and they make their living well enough for the quality they produce.

I agree that some mugs in football shouldn't make the 300-500K per season they make, but i disagree that players like Robert and Devilder should make much more than what they make.

And 80K per season is perfectly OK for these guys, perfectly enough for their level. It allows them to play enough tournaments, to travel, pay their coach, their equipment is not an issue as they do have sponsors for that (even guys outside the top 1000 get their free racquets and equipment) and at the end they have their chance to play GS qualies in terms of the possibility they have to travel up there.

If they're good enough they would make enough money and points to be out of this conversation. If they're not - they get what they get and when they hang the racquet up they have enough opportunities for their life.


Tell me more about the expenses and how these guys are managing their careers, you seem to have so many clues...
I remember someone in this forum that once told me Janowicz 's reason for not making the jump when he had the weapons to do it. And it was mainly the lack of financial support to have a descent professional team. Janowicz parents supported him for a while and he was lucky enough to have his glory week in Paris MS and all that brought after that.

But how many players that doesn't have the financial support of a local tennis organization like USTA just to name one, or the case of junior Gianluigi Quinzi that has 100K per year to support him in order to make his first steps on the pro tour and that depends almost 100% of their earnings to make their steps on the tour? Not everybody has a rich sponsor/tennis association/family to back them. So that's the main reason why they need the income of Future or Challenger events in order to pay their wages.

Latso point is reasonable at one point as well as the rest of the guys that posted before. But I think Latso that you are missing on the point mentioned before.

Just bear in mind that not everybody was born to be a top 20 player but there are plenty of good players (not to mention all top 20)that made their first steps on the low leagues. And many good top 100 players that sometimes they are not having one of their best seasons, falling back to the Challenger tour and returning back some years later to the top 50.

As long as the bottom of the piramid is wider tennis will have the best chances to find new stars. And as the wider it is more amateur players will be playing tennis and some of them making the try to be a professional player. If you reduce the wider of that piramid less players will be around, less amateur players will try to make it on the pro tour, less fans will try to play the sport just for fan, less sponsors, less TV contracts and in consecuense in the middle term the quality of the tour will be even worse. Just check other individual sports like golf for instance where the lower leagues brings a lot of players and has the same structure as tennis. So that is why the structure of Future and Challenger is so important.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:41 AM   #81
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

It's simple it's the tennis food chain Futures, Challengers then the ATP events. It's a progression through the ranks, it shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't be to the point where players at the lower end of the top 100 aren't making money let alo

Golf has the small regional tours, then the Nationwide and then the PGA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:26 PM   #82
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by fran70 View Post
I remember someone in this forum that once told me Janowicz 's reason for not making the jump when he had the weapons to do it. And it was mainly the lack of financial support to have a descent professional team. Janowicz parents supported him for a while and he was lucky enough to have his glory week in Paris MS and all that brought after that.

But how many players that doesn't have the financial support of a local tennis organization like USTA just to name one, or the case of junior Gianluigi Quinzi that has 100K per year to support him in order to make his first steps on the pro tour and that depends almost 100% of their earnings to make their steps on the tour? Not everybody has a rich sponsor/tennis association/family to back them. So that's the main reason why they need the income of Future or Challenger events in order to pay their wages.

Latso point is reasonable at one point as well as the rest of the guys that posted before. But I think Latso that you are missing on the point mentioned before.

Just bear in mind that not everybody was born to be a top 20 player but there are plenty of good players (not to mention all top 20)that made their first steps on the low leagues. And many good top 100 players that sometimes they are not having one of their best seasons, falling back to the Challenger tour and returning back some years later to the top 50.

As long as the bottom of the piramid is wider tennis will have the best chances to find new stars. And as the wider it is more amateur players will be playing tennis and some of them making the try to be a professional player. If you reduce the wider of that piramid less players will be around, less amateur players will try to make it on the pro tour, less fans will try to play the sport just for fan, less sponsors, less TV contracts and in consecuense in the middle term the quality of the tour will be even worse. Just check other individual sports like golf for instance where the lower leagues brings a lot of players and has the same structure as tennis. So that is why the structure of Future and Challenger is so important.
I agree with everything you say. Futures and Challengers are very important and having a wide pyramid is essential.

The bottom of the pyramid is the futures tour, which is getting wider and wider year after year.

But what people need to understand is that it can't go wider without limits, because it would eat itself and i explain why i think so -
If you have 50 futures per week, you will have 200 players getting similar points being in the semies.
Next week you probably would have 200 others. And you will almost always have people who are not necessary better than you getting the same points week in week out, which means you don't progress in the rankings, or you do it very slowly.

This means that at one point the better vultures will get more points than the actual good players, it's all about defining in which futures tournament the filed is the weakest.

That's also why there aren't teenagers in top 250 of the World. They just can't make a breakthrough even by winning enough matches compared to the players of the past.

The same goes for Challengers - it can't be limitless, it can't give too much money, also because of a good point brought up in another thread, named smth like "Will we have less retirements this year?".

The ay it's going, if we increase money for the lower ranks, there will be 35-40yo vultures just making a living and not retiring until their body just snaps.

When do you think Ivo Karlovic will retire? He's 33 and he made 333K last year. Ask 22yo Lajovic if he's happy with the fact that Karlovic takes a 3 hours drive from home (from Zagreb to Bratislava), shoots his average aces and takes him down in second round, to collect 2500Eur and some points, until he steps on someone better.

Lajovic's sponsors, federation and family are probably unhappy with the fact that they will need to invest more and more for him to eventually turn out a financially self supporting player by developing his talent.

One thing i disagree with you - All professional players do have support from their TAs. If they're pros, they have it, because they are the 3-5-10 or 20 who made it through the local pyramid.
The better they perform, the more help they get. That's pretty much everywhere there is tennis.

The problem would be if the financial support would take too long (hence too much money) before these players either prove to be worth or fall down.

If you have 30+ vultures snatching the crumbs here and there this period becomes way too long.

That's possibly why there are limits in prize money and there are limits on tournament numbers.

It's like the pension system in every country - with the better medicine and health care you have more seniors to get pensions longer, while you don't have more workers to provide these pensions and you are in trouble.

If in real life we couldn't just say - we want all seniors over 75 to please go away, so we'll have enough for everyone else, we can do it in tennis - the effort is worth up until a certain age, then better retire.
If we make it lucrative enough for pappies to hang around and make 300K with 18 tournaments per year, then the sponsors and TAs will stop investing in the youngsters, or will invest in a much smaller number.


That's why it's normal these to be regulated, some go out, others get in (tournaments) and the number is kept as much as it would be the best for the sport and its future.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:25 PM   #83
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
I agree with everything you say. Futures and Challengers are very important and having a wide pyramid is essential.

The bottom of the pyramid is the futures tour, which is getting wider and wider year after year.

But what people need to understand is that it can't go wider without limits, because it would eat itself and i explain why i think so -
If you have 50 futures per week, you will have 200 players getting similar points being in the semies.
Next week you probably would have 200 others. And you will almost always have people who are not necessary better than you getting the same points week in week out, which means you don't progress in the rankings, or you do it very slowly.

This means that at one point the better vultures will get more points than the actual good players, it's all about defining in which futures tournament the filed is the weakest.

That's also why there aren't teenagers in top 250 of the World. They just can't make a breakthrough even by winning enough matches compared to the players of the past.

The same goes for Challengers - it can't be limitless, it can't give too much money, also because of a good point brought up in another thread, named smth like "Will we have less retirements this year?".

The ay it's going, if we increase money for the lower ranks, there will be 35-40yo vultures just making a living and not retiring until their body just snaps.

When do you think Ivo Karlovic will retire? He's 33 and he made 333K last year. Ask 22yo Lajovic if he's happy with the fact that Karlovic takes a 3 hours drive from home (from Zagreb to Bratislava), shoots his average aces and takes him down in second round, to collect 2500Eur and some points, until he steps on someone better.

Lajovic's sponsors, federation and family are probably unhappy with the fact that they will need to invest more and more for him to eventually turn out a financially self supporting player by developing his talent.

One thing i disagree with you - All professional players do have support from their TAs. If they're pros, they have it, because they are the 3-5-10 or 20 who made it through the local pyramid.
The better they perform, the more help they get. That's pretty much everywhere there is tennis.

The problem would be if the financial support would take too long (hence too much money) before these players either prove to be worth or fall down.

If you have 30+ vultures snatching the crumbs here and there this period becomes way too long.

That's possibly why there are limits in prize money and there are limits on tournament numbers.

It's like the pension system in every country - with the better medicine and health care you have more seniors to get pensions longer, while you don't have more workers to provide these pensions and you are in trouble.

If in real life we couldn't just say - we want all seniors over 75 to please go away, so we'll have enough for everyone else, we can do it in tennis - the effort is worth up until a certain age, then better retire.
If we make it lucrative enough for pappies to hang around and make 300K with 18 tournaments per year, then the sponsors and TAs will stop investing in the youngsters, or will invest in a much smaller number.


That's why it's normal these to be regulated, some go out, others get in (tournaments) and the number is kept as much as it would be the best for the sport and its future.
This is a great theory and really well backed. But my premise goes on another way: As more Future and Challenger events are that means more players around. The tour turns more professional and only the best ones/better prepared/talented/mentally strong, etc... are the ones that will take the best rankings, better prize money and contracts, etc.. And that means that players with lesser chances will take place of that 2nd level which is the Challenger tour (read between 70 to 250/300 according to the tournament). The Challenger tour allows a big number of players to have a quite descent live without having the skills to reach the first scale of ATP tournaments, and at the same time for the upcoming players means more competition and the chance to improve to develop their skills. Of course that if they are not ready to make that jump that means they will never be able to make any progress. But on the contrary you find some players that worked really hard to progress in particular departments which allowed them to make the jump (read for example players like Vassallo Arguello or Berlocq, players without big tennis skills but had other abilities). You find a big number of players making that jump after 25 years old like Lu, Soeda, Berlocq, Haider Maurer, Lorenzi, Zemjla, Matosevic,etc... who were defeated in so many battles but kept fighting and fighting until they improved their skills and tactics to reach the place where they are now.
And the cases of "Lajovic´s": he is not going to reach the top 100 because "Karlovic´s" may retire but because they manage to develop their own skills to be up there.
And ending with the Challenger tour: I think that many players can make a career playing there (they are not going to become millionaire of course) and that force youngsters to improve themselves in order see if they can make that jump to ATP level. And on the other hand tennis is brought to small cities around the world which makes it worldwide.

And some players can kick around for a while on Future events but definitely cannot make a life there. Players that are on their early 20ties and never manage to play on the Challenger tour sooner or later they retire (read the case of Kevin Konfederak for instance who was a good Future player but never managed to make that jump).

Of course there are many things that should be develop on the organization on the Challenger tour but to erase the number of tournaments is not going to make things any better.

Hence, The Natural Selection of Darwin´s theory can take place in Tennis too
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:37 PM   #84
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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I would personally cancel the Challenger tour, make the few big ones into ATP 250s and name all the rest Futures in different categories.
This amused me. A lot.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:49 PM   #85
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
This amused me. A lot.
It's one of the most nonsensical things I've ever read on MTF. And that is truly impressive.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #86
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

You need to be really dumb or try to not understand on purpose.

There will always be low, middle and high level, no matter how you name it. Challenger 125+H or ATP 125 - what's the difference you mugs?
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:52 PM   #87
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by fran70 View Post
This is a great theory and really well backed. But my premise goes on another way: As more Future and Challenger events are that means more players around. The tour turns more professional and only the best ones/better prepared/talented/mentally strong, etc... are the ones that will take the best rankings, better prize money and contracts, etc.. And that means that players with lesser chances will take place of that 2nd level which is the Challenger tour (read between 70 to 250/300 according to the tournament). The Challenger tour allows a big number of players to have a quite descent live without having the skills to reach the first scale of ATP tournaments, and at the same time for the upcoming players means more competition and the chance to improve to develop their skills. Of course that if they are not ready to make that jump that means they will never be able to make any progress. But on the contrary you find some players that worked really hard to progress in particular departments which allowed them to make the jump (read for example players like Vassallo Arguello or Berlocq, players without big tennis skills but had other abilities). You find a big number of players making that jump after 25 years old like Lu, Soeda, Berlocq, Haider Maurer, Lorenzi, Zemjla, Matosevic,etc... who were defeated in so many battles but kept fighting and fighting until they improved their skills and tactics to reach the place where they are now.
And the cases of "Lajovic´s": he is not going to reach the top 100 because "Karlovic´s" may retire but because they manage to develop their own skills to be up there.
And ending with the Challenger tour: I think that many players can make a career playing there (they are not going to become millionaire of course) and that force youngsters to improve themselves in order see if they can make that jump to ATP level. And on the other hand tennis is brought to small cities around the world which makes it worldwide.

And some players can kick around for a while on Future events but definitely cannot make a life there. Players that are on their early 20ties and never manage to play on the Challenger tour sooner or later they retire (read the case of Kevin Konfederak for instance who was a good Future player but never managed to make that jump).

Of course there are many things that should be develop on the organization on the Challenger tour but to erase the number of tournaments is not going to make things any better.

Hence, The Natural Selection of Darwin´s theory can take place in Tennis too
On most points we agree, except about the point where you believe that more is better and i think too much is counter productive.

What you say is what actually is happening in tennis in the last few years, without the prize money increase.

I also disagree about Lajovic's situation tbh. It's very important in tennis to have your chance and do your rounds at the right moment.

I'm 100% sure that players of Lajovic's caliber at one point start to be really pissed when guys not belonging in CH just go and ruin the youngsters' plans.

It often may lead to confidence and self esteem problems. Guys at 18-22 are very vulnerable mentally and the fact that nowadays it takes much longer for them to start winning their lives is a heavy burden.

My conclusion is that youngsters wouldn't start making a better living if the prizes in CH level increase.
There will just be much more participants, much more older vultures and guys like Tomic, Dimitrov, etc. who we bash today for being only around the top 50 at 20-21 will be extremely rare diamonds. They already are, but if ATP takes the path toward increasing prize money - there will be even less young pros.

It comes to the question - is this really a problem? Not having young players in top 100? What's the problem if they come around at 25 instead of 20?

Well, the problem is that the investment for sponsors and TAs becomes too big, so at one point this enlargement of tournaments and prize money will become counter productive and the sport will come back naturally to its previous positions when it was an "elite" sport for rich people.

If i have 100K and i am willing to risk those, seeing potential in my 12yo kid, i might do it today, but i wouldn't if i know that no matter how talented he is, this talent will materialize (or not) not before 25.
There is the big risk of injuries, the kid (who is no more a kid at 18-19) gets in love and wants to quit, or finds a passion for smth else, or is tired of the really hard schedule of his life, or just loses motivation, etc. - many real risks.
Also maybe he doesn't cope and we figure out he can't become good enough.

Why would i invest such money with all that risk instead of sending him to a super-duper college and secure him a solid living?

You do that if by 20 you can see what will come out, if you have to wait until 25 - it's too long.


An older player has several advantages compared to a young guy, pretty much everything except the physical condition.
They are their own sponsors, they have experience to compensate the physical difference (an experienced player can always toy around and play mental games with an 18yo talented opponent, which most times would end up with a vulture win and a bad psychological wound for the young guy), these guys know the tour like the back of their hand, they know where to apply, they have the right information, they know the hotels and restaurants, they have friends everywhere, they can plan much more precisely and encounter much less critical situations, they can skip weeks as they want because they have enough money to afford it, they know everything about drugs, vitamins, eating correctly, everything.

So if you give them the opportunity to play until 40, you would stop many young guys' development, or slow it down, sometimes dramatically enough for them to burn out.

At the end of the day i think the ATP is balancing this quite well by increasing the number of Futures and keeping a relatively high number of challengers, but also keeping the prize money stable.
They've swallowed the fact that youngsters in top positions will become more and more rare (or maybe they realize it now after analyzing the consequences of the dramatical increase of tournaments in last 10 years) and they try to keep it balanced.

Anyways, we have our respective points and only the future will show what is the best way, hopefully more Jerzy kind of guys emerge, going through all the stages in a rapid fashion, due to a great talent.

Cheers
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:56 PM   #88
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
You need to be really dumb or try to not understand on purpose.

There will always be low, middle and high level, no matter how you name it. Challenger 125+H or ATP 125 - what's the difference you mugs?
so why changing the names for nothing? if its the same but with different number doesnt make sense, plus challenger tour belongs to atp and futures to itf: different story
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:11 PM   #89
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

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Originally Posted by Sombrerero loco View Post
so why changing the names for nothing? if its the same but with different number doesnt make sense, plus challenger tour belongs to atp and futures to itf: different story
the answer is inside the post.

That's what often happens when one takes a phrase out of context - someone else rides it, then another and at the end they all feel stupid, coz it was all already there

To save you some time - coz we'd stop having the monthly dramatic realization of someone that the CH tour is in big danger and we should all start bashing ATP for a few days.

That's why i said that, only just to skip these kinds of drama every month in MTF.

Otherwise it's clear there's no need to change the names of the series, neither they should change the prize money, or increase the number of it.

All they should do - make them all +H and create a program for the TAs to help their youngsters travel cheaper (i believe there is such a thing in the US. If anyone has more info pls share).
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:26 PM   #90
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Default Re: Worrying times: lots of challengers missing in 2013

you guys are complicating things too much. let's make it simple. OK, we know already that not everyone can be as good as Fed/Nole/Rafa ... the bottom line is that guys who are trying to break through need to pay their bills (food, traveling, etc) plus have some extra money for fun.

think about your own professions ... imagine that the best 10 guys, in your profession, are making millions and you can hardly survive. not cool at all.

Didn't Fed make $8 millions is South America? Yes, he is great but I really question this money matters. a small 250 clay tournament is offering $1.2 millions to Nadal to just show up. Same sh!t with Nole and his exhos.

add up these numbers. Top guys are making so much, they don't know what to do with it. I've read this story on another tennis board (really not sure if it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised) that Fed, Nole and Rafa combined are worth more than $1billion.

K, I sound like a communist right now but
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