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Old 12-08-2012, 03:20 PM   #91
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by ProdigyEng View Post
Looks like it to me. You're the poor one giving Murray stick when he owned your love interest in the Olympics and Shanghai after a devastating loss to him in the Wimbledon final. That 10-9 record Murray holds against fed must be devastating to you mustn't it, and I can't wait till djoker gets a positive w/l vs him too. I don't hate Roger, but idiotic fedfans like you make me less interested in him and make it so I don't love him because I don't want to end up an arrogant tard myself. It's funny how you have that ball basher list yet Murray has a slam and none of those on your ball basher list do.

DelPo already won a GS you fool Im sure now: you started to watch tennis in 2008, you are the regular mugraytard (fanboy, non-existent tennis knowledge) you could be a proper soldier for Crapeod
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:10 PM   #92
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
DelPo already won a GS you fool Im sure now: you started to watch tennis in 2008, you are the regular mugraytard (fanboy, non-existent tennis knowledge) you could be a proper soldier for Crapeod
Did you not read my other posts? I missed out that you had Del Potro in your sig, so maybe you should keep quiet before jumping to conclusions.

Why would I have started watching Tennis in 2008? I was born in 1992 and could understand and enjoy the sport when I was around 8 years old. Before Murray came along Britain had Henman, the choke artist of the century, but even though he failed to make a slam final I still followed him and enjoyed his Tennis. We also had Rudzeksi but that doesn't count considering the jerk was actually Canadian... Murray first came on to the scene in 2004 winning the US Open Juniors, so your date when I presumably started watching Tennis, which seems to be judged on the first slam final Murray made, is about 4 years out. But like I said, I've watched since around 1999/2000. I guess you began watching when olderror beat Sampras at the 4th round of Wimbledon in 2001? Meaning I've been watching 1 year more than you... oh sorry, I'm not a muppet, and I don't judge the length people have been watching Tennis based on when their favourite player first made their breakthrough. You seem like a very pathetic human being with your Anti Murray stuff, and it seems to me from your posts you have an obsession for Murray that is bigger than your obsession for Federror. If you want to make yourself look intelligent, maybe you should actually critique players properly, instead of coming up with some childish mugray pusher bollocks. Not once in my time on the forum have I seen any post from you at least giving Murray one ounce of credit, or giving proper precise posts on why you dislike him. I'm not the biggest fan of Federror, but if you check some of my recent posts I give insight into numerous topics about him and have credited him on numerous occasions. This is menstennisforums son, not hateonmurrayforums. If you want to hate on Murray, set up your own forum and go wild, because this place should be for proper insights, not childish slurs against the player you dislike the most.
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And, Roger Federer ranks 5th.

But any problem cannot be found?

argument.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:23 PM   #93
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Federer-Fan View Post
1 Ivanisevic
2 Djokovic
3 Roddick
4 Murray
5 Agassi
This is more like it!
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #94
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
HIs baseline-game was perfect for the 90´s fast grass. No long backswings and he liked to take the ball so early that having little time didn´t really bother him as much as other baseliners. Great return of serve, too. But like you said, it was all natural to him, it probably would have been nearly impossible to play like that as a result of adaptation, it was just his game.
Had to tip my hat to this because this excellent summation of why Agassi was formidable on grass when the surface played quicker.

To that, I'd add that his propensity for hugging the baseline was another strong feature of his game on grass. Between that and his compact swings, he was a great reactive player. He was able to beat guys not by big serves and moving in, but by responding so well to the guys who did.

Also, even as a clean ball-striker, he hit very flat. It boded well for him on a low-bouncing, slick grass court.


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Originally Posted by BIGMARAT View Post
if you cant win wimbledon, your not great on grass!!! slam win doesnt lie.
You know, at the risk of sounding like a prick, this is the type of one-dimensional, ABC logic that really limits threads like these.

For the sake of context, I think it's worth mentioning that none of the champions in this list faced either Sampras or Federer on their road to victory...

You don't sit in the top ten W/L% (Open Era; Roddick, Murray) on a surface that you're average on.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:54 PM   #95
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post

For the sake of context, I think it's worth mentioning that none of the champions in this list faced either Sampras or Federer on their road to victory...
So?? Agassi faced Becker, Ivanisevic and McEnore. 3 Wimbledon champions. He also defeated other great grass-court players like Rafter and Krajicek at Wimbledon.

And Wimbledon is the only grass tournament that matters. There's not a single M1000 on grass and, of course, another slam on grass. You may say that Djokovic is a better clay-courter than Costa or Gaudio despite not winning Roland Garros because he has countless M1000 wins and finals there. But Wimbledon is pretty much the only big thing that is played on grass (unfortunately)
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:11 AM   #96
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
So?? Agassi faced Becker, Ivanisevic and McEnore. 3 Wimbledon champions. He also defeated other great grass-court players like Rafter and Krajicek at Wimbledon.
So none of those guys are Sampras or Federer, arguably the two greatest grass courters of all time. I don't care how great Becker, washed out Mcenroe, or Ivanisevic (who, in turn, was countlessly thwarted by Sampras on grass) are, they're not Sampras or Federer.

The point, if you really don't get it, is that limiting the conversation to "No Wimbledon = no great" is to ignore key context. Agassi and Djokovic might not have had Wimbledon titles had they faced Sampras or Federer respectively, the latter of whom Roddick frequently dealt with and Murray fell short against. I say might, but Sampras' schooling of a resurgent Agassi during his great '99 and Olderer's experienced win over Djokovic this year are more than supportive.

Quote:
And Wimbledon is the only grass tournament that matters. There's not a single M1000 on grass and, of course, another slam on grass. You may say that Djokovic is a better clay-courter than Costa or Gaudio despite not winning Roland Garros because he has countless M1000 wins and finals there. But Wimbledon is pretty much the only big thing that is played on grass (unfortunately)
First, no. You're generalizing based on an outdated and, really, infrequent mentality. Players for a long time have invested in tournaments like Queen's, and those who didn't back then were a minority.

Secondly, you make that point as though neither Roddick or Murray have stats at Wimbledon worth mentioning when one was a relatively frequent finalist and the other hasn't missed the semis in four years.

Finally, if you believe in major results without context, as inferred by several people in this thread, then guys like Gaudio and Costa are superior to Djokovic on clay. Your inflation of Djokovic's few Masters doesn't change the fact that he'd trade all of them for a win.

All this, and we haven't even started on tennis, which is just as important as the results.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:08 AM   #97
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
So none of those guys are Sampras or Federer, arguably the two greatest grass courters of all time. I don't care how great Becker, washed out Mcenroe, or Ivanisevic (who, in turn, was countlessly thwarted by Sampras on grass) are, they're not Sampras or Federer.

The point, if you really don't get it, is that limiting the conversation to "No Wimbledon = no great" is to ignore key context. Agassi and Djokovic might not have had Wimbledon titles had they faced Sampras or Federer respectively, the latter of whom Roddick frequently dealt with and Murray fell short against. I say might, but Sampras' schooling of a resurgent Agassi during his great '99 and Olderer's experienced win over Djokovic this year are more than supportive.



First, no. You're generalizing based on an outdated and, really, infrequent mentality. Players for a long time have invested in tournaments like Queen's, and those who didn't back then were a minority.

Secondly, you make that point as though neither Roddick or Murray have stats at Wimbledon worth mentioning when one was a relatively frequent finalist and the other hasn't missed the semis in four years.

Finally, if you believe in major results without context, as inferred by several people in this thread, then guys like Gaudio and Costa are superior to Djokovic on clay. Your inflation of Djokovic's few Masters doesn't change the fact that he'd trade all of them for a win.

All this, and we haven't even started on tennis, which is just as important as the results.
You may have a point about Roddick. But Murray lost only once to Federer or Sampras in Wimbledon, which was this year.

Agassi lost easily to Sampras in 99', yes. But he took him to 5 sets in 93' being injured and coming back from two sets down IIRC.

I do not believe in major results without context, what I meant is that in other surfaces there are other important tournaments, in grass Wimbledon is pretty much the only big thing. Yes, Queen's is a nice tournament, Halle too, but there are not M1000.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:43 AM   #98
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
I do not believe in major results without context, what I meant is that in other surfaces there are other important tournaments, in grass Wimbledon is pretty much the only big thing. Yes, Queen's is a nice tournament, Halle too, but there are not M1000.
This is (sadly) the truth.
And I say sadly because we all urgently need more grass tournaments.

But today, Wimbledon is the only grass-fact to consider.
If Halle and Queens were taken half as seriously as wimbledon, the first seeds would be always the winners. I mean... This year Nadal lost to Kohly at Halle, and Murray lost to Mahut.

And then the wimb final was Federer - Murray, who lost to Mahut?
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:14 AM   #99
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

The long-winded one is now downplaying Djokovic's quality clay matches with Rafa because he can't admit that Roddick did not have the great all-surface tennis talent, no matter how hard Roddick hoped to win without being physically & emotionally fit.
Who did Roddick beat when stress and stamina were at an all-time high for top 10 grass players? He couldn't handle Gasquet from a 2-set lead because Federer was in his next round. He lost to Tipsarevic and claimed he was injured and only played because Wimbledon needed his presence. That loss to Lu was no shock to anyone. LMAO
Agassi would be embarrassed if Lu beat him, but Roddick already knew his Slam dreams were over the minute he saw Federer win 2004 Wimbledon.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:14 AM   #100
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Didn't you used to love Roddick?
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:27 AM   #101
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
As you know, many of the best grass court players over the years have been outside the top ranks, which were understandably dominated by other specialists. Grass is a uniquely alienating blip on the tour that sometimes favored distinct talents. Roddick's wins over guys like Ancic, Grosjean, Rusedski and Schalken were more credible than ousting certain higher ranks.

And again, this has been consistent for years. Let's not forget that Sampras' last three Wimbledons were won without facing a single guy in the top 15.
I didn't mention rankings at all when I was talking about big scalps on grass. Those guys are very good players and were noteworthy wins for Roddick. However he hasn't had many huge, stellar wins on grass at Wimbledon, as like Murray, Djokovic etc he has played in an era where there has been a dearth of experts on grass (or clay for that matter), with the vast majority of players on the tour being hard courters in a hard court dominated era. It's not like the situation in the 90s where Agassi had to overcome the likes of Krajicek, Becker, Rafter etc before getting to the final.

He has also played in an era with fewer dangerous floaters to worry about in the 1st week at Wimbledon, compared to the 80s or 90s, when clay and grass court tournaments were full of them (plus only 16 seeds at the slams made things more dangerous for the top guns). That's not his fault at all but while he was thwarted by Federer time after time, that is offset by the fact that he benefited from a relative lack of competition on grass, and thus generally faced pretty easy routes to progress far enough to play Federer in the first place on those occasions.

And Sampras faced three opponents in the top 15 en-route to his 1999/penultimate Wimbledon title.

Quote:
I agree insofar that some of the bigger servers of yesteryear were better returners than Roddick, but not by much. The primary difference was that guys like Sampras and especially Ivanisevic took more chances than Roddick, who played deep on returns. When he was proactive, though, it was mostly to the same effect. You mention Ivanisevic breaking Sampras; I'm pretty sure Roddick and Hewitt were the only two guys to have broken Federer at Wimbledon '04. And before we go praising the return of the old guys too much, those are the same guys who championed the tiebreak/one break of serve format that's so prevalent today.
No those guys were all significantly better returners than Roddick. Roddick’s return of serve has been average at best and routinely mocked by commentators. Goran had an exceptionally good cross court backhand return (one of his best shots in fact), that was not just effective on grass, but also on clay which he enjoyed success on in the early 90s. His forehand return wasn't as good but still pretty effective. Jimmy Connors marvelled at how strong Stich’s backhand return was (and he played him) and Sampras feared it. Krajicek was hitting backhand return winners like Agassi in 1996 (that shot had previously been a noticeable weakness for him), and began to tee off even on Sampras 1st serves in their quarter-final. His forehand return could always be dangerous and explosive from the early 90s. The return game that Goran played to clinch the 4th set of the 1998 final is one of the best return games I’ve ever seen at Wimbledon.

Roddick has never been able to return as well as that throughout his career. Yes he has often been passive on his return of serve but that is symptomatic of his own lack of confidence in the shot.

And yes breaking Federer at Wimbledon in 2004 was very a good achievement, but breaking opponents on the slower grass when floating returns are sufficient, is very different to breaking opponents on faster grass when you had to be more aggressive and take more risks on the return, otherwise your opponent has an easy putaway at the net. Grosjean also broke Federer in 2004 in the 3rd set of their semi-final.

Quote:
Still, I concur that Roddick's return-of-serve would be hindered on faster grass, but frankly, I think some of your points inflate the old guard. Ivanisevic and Krajicek as more athletic, better movers on the surface?
No inflation at all, those assertions are pretty clear. Goran was faster than Roddick and a better mover on grass than him. He moved exceptionally well for a guy of his height, or a guy of any height. He was a natural athlete who could have taken up a number of sports, but he ultimately chose tennis.

Krajicek also moved very well for a guy that tall (1.96m) and his compact strokes allowed him to move effortlessly to the net.

Stich was also an exceptionally gifted athlete who moved very well on all surfaces, and like Goran, as a junior he could have taken up other sports if he wanted to as German coaches have confirmed.

Quote:
When was movement on grass ever really an issue for prime Roddick on grass? When he dropped weight for Wimbledon '04, he looked as quick
as ever, and it showed in his improvisation.
Roddick was a decent mover in his prime but not an exceptional one.

In 2008 and before he teamed up with Stefanki and embarked on another weight loss campaign, he was moving pretty poorly on grass.

Roddick's footwork and balance has looked very clumsy at times. On slower grass that isn't that big an issue. But on the 90s grass, quick reflexes, instincts and effective footwork would be more crucial. I don’t think Roddick stacks up there.

Quote:
I've seen enough of Ivanisevic's clunky approach shots and clumsy horizontal movement to know that his athleticism is not otherworldy.
Watch Goran’s matches in full from the 90s (and not just on grass), and not just youtube highlights. He was a tremendously gifted athlete. He was an excellent football and basketball player as a junior as well as a superb cross country runner. His footwork wasn't great but his athleticism was enough for him to overcome that on grass (like in the women’s game both the Williams sisters have had poor footwork but overcame that with sheer athleticism). His athleticism was one of his strengths and it came naturally to him.

Quote:
To that point, as much as poor returns wouldn’t fly on fast grass, guys in the 90’s got away with baseline and approach shots that just wouldn’t cut it today, so Andy’s game would certainly have its strengths on the surface.
Speaking of approach shots, Roddick's was famed for coming in like a headless chicken on poor approach shots only to get passed at will (many of his opponents’ winner and passing shot counts against him were absurdly high). Hewitt in 2004/2005 and Federer were very good at hitting short balls to bait Roddick into coming to the net. Roddick would take that bait, and his lack of confidence at the net would be exposed.

Quote:
Roddick had no problem making his way around a grass court in his youth, and he actually played net quite well. And hell, as late as ’09 he even posted better percentages up there than Federer. His net game might not hold up to some guys in the 90's, but it made a difference. And on a quicker surface, who knows? It's a lot easier to anticipate moving forward when the surface speeds facilitate such an effort.
Even in an era when many players hardly came to the net, Roddick has been a mediocre volleyer at best with shaky hands. Likewise Goran was a mediocre volleyer during his era, but he still had far better hands at the net than Roddick did.

His service motion (going straight up rather than into the court like Goran) isn't particularly conducive to serve-volleying. Goran's finish on his serve allowed him to be further in the court than Roddick, thus volleys were easier.

Roddick was a very defensive player as a junior, so a net-game never came naturally to him.

Quote:
In any case, as you mentioned, a guy like Agassi dismissed the notion that grass court tennis was restricted to serve-and-volleying. What’s important is to play to the principles of the surface. While serve-and-volleying is one way to do that, it’s certainly not restricted to that. Guys like Roddick and Murray, despite their limitations, clearly had a natural feel for the surface, even if unconventionally so.
Agassi was one of the only players that was comfortable predominantly staying back on the old grass, thanks to his compact strokes, all-time great return of serve, strong baseline games from both wings, and unrivalled hand-eye co-ordination. Lendl who also had one of the greatest baseline games of all time but a longer backswing on his strokes, wasn't comfortably staying back at Wimbledon, nor was Courier or many other baseliners. Goran played from the baseline on slower surfaces but came in at Wimbledon. As with many other players, Roddick's baseline gamewouldn't cut it on old style grass. Like practically every player not named Agassi, he would have to come in at least semi-regularly to stand a chance.

I personally think if Roddick played in the 90s, the hard courts would suit his game a lot more than grass. During his time on the tour and even during his prime, his record in the big fast indoor events before they were slowed down wasn't exactly stellar (in fact he never reached the final of a big indoor tournament during his career). He has openly commented that medium paced surfaces suit his game, notably his return of serve and groundstrokes, more than faster ones. It was funny when the San Jose organisers thought that speeding up their surface would benefit him, when it didn't at all and he had to tell them that. Ahead of the USA-Croatia Davis Cup tie in LA in 2005, he asked for the hard court surface to be slowed down.

Roddick has been an outstanding player, but I have always laughed at the overly simplistic (and IMO incorrect) notion that with his huge serve he would have preferred the faster 90s surface conditions to the ones he has played on in the 00s. He played in exactly the right era for his style of play I think.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:04 AM   #102
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

1. Ivanisevic
2. Djokovic
3. Agassi
4. Roddick
5. Murray
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:49 PM   #103
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Ivanisevic
Agassi
Roddick
Murray
Djokovic
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:05 PM   #104
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphrontanascier View Post
1. Ivanisevic
2. Djokovic
3. Agassi
4. Roddick
5. Murray
If you're putting Djokovic above Agassi, it really is best if you stick to your TF chat threads.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:16 PM   #105
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
If you're putting Djokovic above Agassi, it really is best if you stick to your TF chat threads.
I think we need to be realistic and put Djokovic 1st............Novak's sublime level on grass is only second to Fed and even that it's a coin flip
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