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Old 12-06-2012, 06:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

LOL at people putting Roddick and Murray over Agassi.

Agassi won Wimbledon on real grass defeating McEnroe, Becker and Ivanisevic. He also defeated players like Krajicek and Rafter.

The only one that may be considerd better than Agassi is Ivanisevic.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
Murray (like Djokovic) is 25 years old, and here we compare with players for whom one knows a whole carreer, then I think it's fair to have a little bit imagination for the future rather than judge Murray and Djokovic on the past and on that single feat (besides, we all know what happened in the Djoko vs Nadal match-up that year and Murray defeated Djokovic and Federer in the Olympics)

... and anyway we need imagination to imagine how they would have played on the 90s' grass
I've ranked them based on their results thus far, considering there's no other way than completely guessing, or using your imagination as you phrase it in regards to judging how they'd play during the 90's, when they certainly wouldn't adopt the same tactics and potentially overhaul their games completely.

Bear in mind that the field on grass during the 90's was deeper than it is now, undoubtedly.

These discussions can be fun, but judging era's can be a juvenile topic when taken seriously.

The only thing we can conclude from this is that barring Agassi, all players played on a surface truly suited to their game, this is why I think Agassi's victory was more emphatic and especially considering it was his first slam, which was unexpected at the time. We can also conclude that there were many players in the 90's who were dangerous on grass and capable of taking out more expected players, whereas today it doesn't take a genius to predict 90% of the matches at hand.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Few days ago was reading Goran's interview where he was saying that now he is serving the fastest in his life, just due to technology change. So even if he peaked in this era his serve would be as big as everybody just whit much better placement. So thinking that his conditions would harm him or other big servers from from '90 big time is wrong
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by samanosuke View Post
Few days ago was reading Goran's interview where he was saying that now he is serving the fastest in his life, just due to technology change. So even if he peaked in this era his serve would be as big as everybody just whit much better placement. So thinking that his conditions would harm him or other big servers from from '90 big time is wrong
Speed guns perhaps, but Goran is still using the PC600. And I seriously doubt he's serving as fast, considering in 2006 or so he was serving around 10mph less on first serves.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

1. Ivanisevic
2. Roddick
3. Agassi
4. Murray
5. Djokovic

First off, Wimbledon title or not, Roddick is neck-and-neck with some of the better players on grass. Ivanisevic won his only title there when Sampras bowed out early; Roddick never had that luxury with Fed while he was playing well. Still, he did well against him, and let's not forget his some 33-0 record against guys not named Fed between 03-05. He beat names like Agassi, Hewitt, Grosjean, Rusedski, Philippoussis, Ancic, and Dent in that time. He later made the finals of W when the surface played much slower, even, and added names like Berdych and Murray to that count. To dismiss the possibility of ranking him highly is a joke; he had a game tailored for grass.

I put Agassi in at third because he was solid on the surface for most of his career. The play that won him the title early in his career was much more high-risk than the style he adopted later in his career.

Finally, I put Murray above Djokovic simply because I believe the former is better on the surface. His game is better suited for it, with things like his big first serve, great slice backhand, his keen ability to handle big servers, and his spectacular movement to name the bulk of it. Yes, Nole beat Nadal to win Wimbledon whereas Murray hasn't, but I believe that's more due to match-up as well as Djokovic's general level of play in 2011. I believe he won Wimbledon at that time because he was the best player in the world rather than the best grass court player.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #21
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Don't know how is situation now, just saying what he himself said. Last time I was watching him at Black Rock masters two years ago when he won it. Average was around 200kmh . Few ones were 220+ and how his record from playing days was 225 he was there.

But regardless to speed perception that in mixture of eras guys from '90 would lack from this era is wrong. Give '90 guys today's surfaces and this era guys racket technology from '90 and i think it's obvious who would be harmed more.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #22
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
the problem is which grass to take into account ? old quick one or modern slow one ? try to make a mixture I guess

considering that, Agassi should clearly be ranked ahead of Ivanisevic, because on quick grass Ivanisevic was a little bit better but on modern grass Agassi would be much better.

The hardest to rank imo is Murray because on old quick grass Murray would have played completely differently : clearly he would have played serve-and-volley, which is a game imo he's perfectly able to play.

I will try to make my rank with this "surfaces mixture" :

1. Agassi
2. Murray
3. Ivanisevic
4. Roddick
5. Djokovic
Murray, on the quickest of today's courts, loves nothing better than staying away from the net at all costs. See this year at Dubai, although that's not as quick as 90s Wimbledon.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by samanosuke View Post
Don't know how is situation now, just saying what he himself said. Last time I was watching him at Black Rock masters two years ago when he won it. Average was around 200kmh . Few ones were 220+ and how his record from playing days was 225 he was there.

But regardless to speed perception that in mixture of eras guys from '90 would lack from this era is wrong. Give '90 guys today's surfaces and this era guys racket technology from '90 and i think it's obvious who would be harmed more.
Racket technology has not improved in the longest time. The best players' rackets today are still widely considered as the PC600, Pro staff moulds, POG etc. Players use paint jobs and those with a keen eye can spot them from a mile away. String technology improved vastly in the late 90's with the likes of Luxilon developing etc but still, there's no better all-round string than gut.

Goran loved playing with gut and used Babolat All Season pretty much throughout his career. There's no way that today he's going to jump to some synthetic like Big Banger, RPM Blast or whatever. Considering he's 41, had umpteen shoulder problems and no longer has close to the power in his legs as a result of his age tells me that he's either being fooled by tampered speed guns or he's just trying to be smart. I've lost count at the amount of times I've seen past pros bombing down serves at exhibitions and on the Blackrock tour that look barely 115mph and they're registering 125mph+.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Burrow View Post
I

The only thing we can conclude from this is that barring Agassi, all players played on a surface truly suited to their game, this is why I think Agassi's victory was more emphatic and especially considering it was his first slam, which was unexpected at the time. We can also conclude that there were many players in the 90's who were dangerous on grass and capable of taking out more expected players, whereas today it doesn't take a genius to predict 90% of the matches at hand.
even roddick?

yeah grass was still relatively quick in 2004 and 2005 compared to today, but I can't help but think that a big server like him would've done even better in the 90s before any decrease in court speed - which started in 2001
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Murray, on the quickest of today's courts, loves nothing better than staying away from the net at all costs. See this year at Dubai, although that's not as quick as 90s Wimbledon.
I saw Murray against Nalbandian in Bercy 2010 (the quick version) : Nalbandian played very well and dominated first set, then Murray decided to change and play serve and volley ... and he won next two sets.

No doubt that in an era when everybody or nearly (not Agassi or Thierry Champion ) played serve and volley, Murray would have played serve and volley, and imo, he does have very good abilities for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrow View Post
Bear in mind that the field on grass during the 90's was deeper than it is now, undoubtedly.
in the early 90s definitely yes, and that's why I fully agree that Agassi's win was a giant performance.

But in the late 90s and early 00s, no imo there were only a few players who really had the game to play on grass as the players of new generations were rather baseliners who had few abilities on grass (Moya, Kuerten, Kafelnikov, Medvedev, Rios, Corretja, Safin ... only Philippoussis and Rusedski were new, but it was quite little comparing to those who had gone like Becker, Edberg, Stich...).

Imo modern conditions rather enabled more players to play better on grass and the field to get deeper, and I think that in the current game, Wimbledon is clearly the slam where more surprises can happen. In the late 90s, few players could defeat Sampras or Henman or Rafter in Wimbledon because few players knew how to play that game.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

Regarding Muzza and Nole you can argue either way. Murray's more natural on it and moves better but Nole has the biggest title.

Murray- 1 Wimbledon final, 1 Olympic title and 2 Queens
Djokovic- 1 Wimbledon victory, 1 Halle final and 1 Queens final

I guess both are valid.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Burrow View Post
Racket technology has not improved in the longest time. The best players' rackets today are still widely considered as the PC600, Pro staff moulds, POG etc. Players use paint jobs and those with a keen eye can spot them from a mile away. String technology improved vastly in the late 90's with the likes of Luxilon developing etc but still, there's no better all-round string than gut.

Goran loved playing with gut and used Babolat All Season pretty much throughout his career. There's no way that today he's going to jump to some synthetic like Big Banger, RPM Blast or whatever. Considering he's 41, had umpteen shoulder problems and no longer has close to the power in his legs as a result of his age tells me that he's either being fooled by tampered speed guns or he's just trying to be smart. I've lost count at the amount of times I've seen past pros bombing down serves at exhibitions and on the Blackrock tour that look barely 115mph and they're registering 125mph+.
Great explanation

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Regarding Muzza and Nole you can argue either way. Murray's more natural on it and moves better but Nole has the biggest title.

Murray- 1 Wimbledon final, 1 Olympic title and 2 Queens
Djokovic- 1 Wimbledon victory, 1 Halle final and 1 Queens final

I guess both are valid.
If I have to choose one of these to play for my life would choose Murray any day. Still like you said, Nole has Wimby title, Murray doesn't
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:14 PM   #28
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by End da Game View Post
even roddick?

yeah grass was still relatively quick in 2004 and 2005 compared to today, but I can't help but think that a big server like him would've done even better in the 90s before any decrease in court speed - which started in 2001
With a return as poor as Roddick's, I feel that he'd have struggled to deal with players who not only had cannons for first serves, but also excellent second serves. Couple that with the fact they came in and punished anything less than an excellent return and it would spell disaster for Roddick. This is something that's largely overlooked by MTF. Then there's the fact that Roddick doesn't possess the greatest of passing shots. There's more to fast grass than a big serve.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

1. Ivanisevic
2. Agassi
3. Roddick
4. Murray
5. Djokovic

Djokovic may have a Wimbledon title, but I think Murray is the better player on the surface. He has also been more consistent on the surface over the years.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: Agassi, Ivanisevic, Roddick, Murray, Djokovic: How would you rank them on grass?

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Originally Posted by Burrow View Post
My ranks:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Agassi
3. Roddick
4. Djokovic
5. Murray

Ivanisevic is a clear front runner, much of the rest is debatable.
exactly what I came to post.

though byron black > all, obvs.
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