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Old 12-01-2012, 04:41 PM   #31
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
Drop shot needs to be 80% perfect to have a winning possibility, all the rest is an invitation for the opponent.

The only way to raise the number of volleys is to play S&V and chip and charge actually, as the rest of the time you -

either hit winners following your good serve
either you are defending behind your return.

Players still do some 10-20 volleys in a 3 setter in average, so everything above this is either S&V or C&C.

Both are suicidal strategies and could be used once in a while to surprise the opponent.
About drop shots - don´t think they must be perfectly played, how i mentioned even ,,lazy drop shot,, could win you point if you use it wisely at right moment - of course i am not saying players should drop shot now every point, but my point was if someone try drop shot 4x in match, why not 10x in match and at right time, in 20+ rally when opponent is far behind baseline in corner - just not perfect drop shot in other corner behind the net should be enough for forced error or easy lob, passing shot when the other player can give it back to your side of the net - that´s my point about drop shots - win few points more relatively easily and change the rhytm

About volleys - agree with your numbers that players are going to the net say 15x in 3 setter, but part of this is after drop shot, part of this is maybe after let cord in rally, i agree that SV style or chip-charge should be managed just few times - but after great slice serve outwide why not go the net or after great return to the corner when you can see your opponent won´t be able to get back decent groundstroke why not go the net. Just like with drop shots, even volley could be ,,lazy,, not perfectly done but timing is key, if you know when to go to the net this is the key and i really doń t understand why nobody can use this from players, to see new opportunities with either volleys or drop shots
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:07 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

petar pan is a king of 1+1=2 threads
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:29 AM   #33
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

The are all allergic to fuzz sandwiches.
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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Originally Posted by Super Djoker View Post
Courts being slow is no excuse ! I play on courts slow as ass and I can still hit un returnable volley,s if I can do it, hell Volleying should be a piece of cake for these guys ! Far too many baseliners in modern Tennis , however Llodra is a sitting duck half the time as his approach play Is shit !
Do you play against Federer, Nadal, Djoker, Murray?

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Old 12-02-2012, 03:43 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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petar pan is a king of 1+1=2 threads
lol
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:46 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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Originally Posted by Super Djoker View Post
Courts being slow is no excuse ! I play on courts slow as ass and I can still hit un returnable volley,s if I can do it, hell Volleying should be a piece of cake for these guys ! Far too many baseliners in modern Tennis , however Llodra is a sitting duck half the time as his approach play Is shit !
I hope you work hard to make your way up in top echelon of tennis so we can marvel how great you execute those easy volleys that you speak of against the likes of players that is Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Muray.
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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I hope you work hard to make your way up in top echelon of tennis so we can marvel how great you execute those easy volleys that you speak of against the likes of players that is Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Muray.
He is a Super Djoker!
Of course a mere Djoker will be nothing to him!
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:29 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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It IS indeed a combination of lack of skill and not training it. Federer's net skills won him the Wimbledon final this year, he came in more than any final he had ever played prior IIRC..

Regardless, it is truly a lack of skill. Players do not know when to cover the line or when to cover the cross court shot. They are indeed a sitting duck, the courts aren't slow, they are... On top of that, as I mentioned, we do not have an elite player that uses this method, so how can one insinuate that a player cannot get to the top with such a style...that is unless you base your ideology using the careers of Llodra and Stepanek for example. They aren't elite players, but both have had very good careers on the singles tour. Imagine if they had the natural talent of like a Federer, or physique/mental strength of Djokovic/Nadal. You really think that can't make it to the top of the game?

Players get passed because they don't know the proper way to play at the net. Just compare the great S&V players to now. They knew where to cover. Sometimes you have to play the percentages, sometimes you have to take a risk, sometimes you're a sitting duck and have to guess, it all depends and a good net player uses these different approaches. At the same time, while there are good volleyers that don't come in that often, majority of the players don't have the volleys of great net players..they just know how to cut off a floating reply. Once the ball comes back with heat, not too many can deal with it properly.

If you want a little comparison, look at Novak's success last year mainly against Rafa. Djokovic was oftentimes literally standing and waiting for Rafa to hit the ball back crosscourt and all he needed to do was stick his racket out for an easy volley. Then looking at Federer in his prime years against Rafa, he was so stubborn about that very same thing. He would cover the down the line shot time and time allowing Rafa to pass cross court pretty easily.

Just having good volleys is only a very small aspect towards being a great net player. Look at Ivanisevic, he had very mediocre volleys, regardless of whether you think how much surfaces/technology have changed, he was still a top player. Hitting the right serve, knowing where to move, being confident with the play and take the right percentages are much more important factors in being a great net player that players these days don't have.
It is no surpise that players of the current era dont´t have technically great volleys. SInce it´s a tactic that dpesn´t really work nowadays, they dont practice volleys, so obviously when they do come to the net, it looks a little clumsy. But that´s all due to the slower courts. Why practice something that doesn´t work even if you execute it well?

The same goes for their net coverage. There are no Edbergs or McEnroes because no one practices that style. But that´s only part of the story. Slower courts and better technology of the rackets have given a huge advantage to the baseline players. Sure, Edberg, McEnroe, Rafter etc. covered the net very well, and had great volleys, but then again, they never faced players like Djokovic or Nadal. Slow surfaces mean that players have much more time to get to the volleys then they used to, and modern racket technology allows them to hit passing shots with such steep angles and huge spins, that the net-players chances of winning the point have decreased substantially. It´s a very difficult to hit a first volley that would put the player in a winning position. While it is nice to speculate how Edberg-Nadal match would turn out, for example, in reality it is pretty clear. On a modern hard court, with modern technology Nadal would pass Edberg almost as well as he passes Federer, for example. Edberg would volley better than Federer, but it would not give him enough of an advantage. At least, that´s how I see it.

As for Ivanisevic, his net skills were really not that special. He was a tall guy who had a huge serve and pretty lousy groundstrokes, so the sensible thing for him was to follow the serve to the net. But it was mostly about finishing the points when his serve didn´t do it, I wouldn´t rate him as a real "volleyer", who covered the net exceptionally well.

Last edited by Dougie : 12-02-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:21 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

The only difference in practicing volleys is not during the training sessions, but during the matches.

The time spent on volleys in training in the 80s is the same as today for the pros, simply because volleys still do exist and a player would hit a hundred of them in any tournament (considering he plays enough matches), so they still work the volleys and they do play them relatively well too.

They don't do it as often during matches as before, as S&V and chip and charge tactics are not winning tactics nowadays.

And a Nadal - Edberg match would end in no more than 2-3 games for Edberg overall, that's pretty sure.

Just as a match between me and Rod Laver at his best, despite i'm an amateur and he's an all time legend.

Just as Florence Griffith-Joyner would be faster at 100m in 1988 than the record holder man in 1912.

The only guys in tennis who are really practicing the volleying tactics almost as in the 80s-90s are Llodra, Stepanek and Kubot. And they won't get anywhere further than they have ever been. And these guys are just great at the net, not less than Edberg or any other specialist.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:30 PM   #40
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
The only difference in practicing volleys is not during the training sessions, but during the matches.

The time spent on volleys in training in the 80s is the same as today for the pros, simply because volleys still do exist and a player would hit a hundred of them in any tournament (considering he plays enough matches), so they still work the volleys and they do play them relatively well too.

They don't do it as often during matches as before, as S&V and chip and charge tactics are not winning tactics nowadays.

And a Nadal - Edberg match would end in no more than 2-3 games for Edberg overall, that's pretty sure.

Just as a match between me and Rod Laver at his best, despite i'm an amateur and he's an all time legend.

Just as Florence Griffith-Joyner would be faster at 100m in 1988 than the record holder man in 1912.

The only guys in tennis who are really practicing the volleying tactics almost as in the 80s-90s are Llodra, Stepanek and Kubot. And they won't get anywhere further than they have ever been. And these guys are just great at the net, not less than Edberg or any other specialist.
...Your comparison between Edberg and Nadal are based on his stats when he used to play with the technology and courts available to him (not to mention what used to be considered standard for physical requirements back then) compared to what Rafa has now.. That is completely unfair and almost like apples and oranges.

So are you saying Llodra, Stepanek and Kubot are as good as superstars like Sampras, Becker, Edberg, etc? People use these players as examples as to why net players won't be successful today, but it is in fact quite the opposite. Llodra and Stepanek don't have Rafa's mental strength, Novak's physical traits, Federer's talent, Murray's ability to read game, etc, yet Llodra became #21 in the world and Stepanek was a top 10 player... Now if they were real superstars and had some fantastic attribute like the current top 4 have, you really think they can't make it to the top of the game? I sincerely doubt that. I mean we are in the complete opposite of how things used to be when people questioned how a baseliner could win Wimbledon for example.

Look at Tsonga. Arguably he isn't really a net player, but he certainly shows how effective it can be. Why doesn't he succeed? His mental strength is nowhere near the top 4s and he has a rather erratic forehand volley.

E: Might be cliche or sound like a broken record, but I sincerely do not think there is anyone who has some sense or logic believes that a prime Sampras couldn't pick up some titles with the conditions in today's game. As successful as he was in the 90s? Maybe not, but being able to pick up slam titles, that is definite. I mean seriously, just watch how he came into the net compared to how players these days do. The players these days are sitting ducks and have no clue compared to Sampras on how to position themselves, which is heavily the reason why they get passed.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:21 AM   #41
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

This is just not true mate, i completely disagree on most.

Llodra is equal or better than Sampras at volleying, he doesn't have that good of a serve and baseline game, but at the net, approaching, positioning, execution - all good enough.

Llodra would be a superstar in the 80s and he has all the attributes that made the guys you mention superstars, but he doesn't have the old racquets and courts, that's his only problem.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:07 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

because the ATP broadcasted this at a player's meeting by mistake once:



it's a hazardous area, clearly.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:46 AM   #43
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:27 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

only a few players are talented enough to be effective at net playing.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:35 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

I've always wondered whether modern grip styles contribute to the lack of volleying skills. The tendency towards semi-western and outright western grips make for more complicated transitions as a big grip change is required to volley with real effect and sometimes, approach too. Also, I think there's sometimes just a plain lack of court nous. Time and again I've seen Roddick, for example, come in on a half-floated, cross-court approach and then have to scamper across, almost off balance, to cover the open court when a knifed down-the-line would have been much the better play. And it always seems to me at least, that those pros who seem least comfortable with the volley tend to have an extreme forehand grip.

Years ago, pre-open era really, forehands were often hit with an open racquet, Fred Perry style. Strokes were pretty much hit with a single universal grip (with the exception, perhaps, of the west coast of America which has always had cement courts) and a change was not required so much for an optimum volley grip. More recently, the best volleyers (like Henman, Sampras, Edberg) used eastern forehand grips or certainly more eastern than western.

Just a thought really.
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