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Old 11-30-2012, 05:25 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

you just can't win the point by the first volley because of slow surfaces and you just get passed with the opponent's second shot.

That's why
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

nothing about 'training' that is false logic, despite the overall pro game turning into an entirely baseline battle, tennis players are still trained just as much as ever on volleying

many can do it well but it will not be as effective as it once was no matter what. I mean any player in the top 100 you'll witness do some great vollies from time to time, not using the tactic frequently does not reflect their ability

going to the net is suicide in today's game, when the last time you saw that work against some with good passing shots like Nadal, 5 years ago?
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:24 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

>> Why players don't go to net more often?

Uncle Toni.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:06 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

they're not training it less. They're using it less. And they're not using it less Because their tactics is by default baseline tennis...their tactics is by default baseline tennis Because they can't be successful going at the net too often.

It's just the semi amateur tennis of the 80s and 90s is now transformed into real pro tennis and with the slow surfaces you'd get ripped at the net.

A guy super talented at the net like Llodra is able to keep a max top 25-30 level with his style, which is not the way it is because he thinks it's more effective, rather because his shots consistency from the baseline is mediocre to say the least.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Llodra is not necessarily better at the net than most guys. He really has no choice but to rush forward; he's just better in doubles tennis.

I only see effective serve, volley & dropshots from someone like Janowicz because he's agile, taller & very fast.

If you force a very short or overweight slow guy to net, he'll need luck to win some tourneys. If they have foolish techniques from the baseline and they aren't very talented and flexible at net, they'll lose every major tourney.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Courts being slow is no excuse ! I play on courts slow as ass and I can still hit un returnable volley,s if I can do it, hell Volleying should be a piece of cake for these guys ! Far too many baseliners in modern Tennis , however Llodra is a sitting duck half the time as his approach play Is shit !
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:15 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Djoker View Post
Courts being slow is no excuse ! I play on courts slow as ass and I can still hit un returnable volley,s if I can do it, hell Volleying should be a piece of cake for these guys ! Far too many baseliners in modern Tennis , however Llodra is a sitting duck half the time as his approach play Is shit !
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Because the atp slows the courts down on uncle toni's wish.

Next years WTF will be held on clay in Spain probably
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
they're not training it less. They're using it less. And they're not using it less Because their tactics is by default baseline tennis...their tactics is by default baseline tennis Because they can't be successful going at the net too often.

It's just the semi amateur tennis of the 80s and 90s is now transformed into real pro tennis and with the slow surfaces you'd get ripped at the net.

A guy super talented at the net like Llodra is able to keep a max top 25-30 level with his style, which is not the way it is because he thinks it's more effective, rather because his shots consistency from the baseline is mediocre to say the least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaindewslave View Post
nothing about 'training' that is false logic, despite the overall pro game turning into an entirely baseline battle, tennis players are still trained just as much as ever on volleying

many can do it well but it will not be as effective as it once was no matter what. I mean any player in the top 100 you'll witness do some great vollies from time to time, not using the tactic frequently does not reflect their ability

going to the net is suicide in today's game, when the last time you saw that work against some with good passing shots like Nadal, 5 years ago?
It IS indeed a combination of lack of skill and not training it. Federer's net skills won him the Wimbledon final this year, he came in more than any final he had ever played prior IIRC..

Regardless, it is truly a lack of skill. Players do not know when to cover the line or when to cover the cross court shot. They are indeed a sitting duck, the courts aren't slow, they are... On top of that, as I mentioned, we do not have an elite player that uses this method, so how can one insinuate that a player cannot get to the top with such a style...that is unless you base your ideology using the careers of Llodra and Stepanek for example. They aren't elite players, but both have had very good careers on the singles tour. Imagine if they had the natural talent of like a Federer, or physique/mental strength of Djokovic/Nadal. You really think that can't make it to the top of the game?

Players get passed because they don't know the proper way to play at the net. Just compare the great S&V players to now. They knew where to cover. Sometimes you have to play the percentages, sometimes you have to take a risk, sometimes you're a sitting duck and have to guess, it all depends and a good net player uses these different approaches. At the same time, while there are good volleyers that don't come in that often, majority of the players don't have the volleys of great net players..they just know how to cut off a floating reply. Once the ball comes back with heat, not too many can deal with it properly.

If you want a little comparison, look at Novak's success last year mainly against Rafa. Djokovic was oftentimes literally standing and waiting for Rafa to hit the ball back crosscourt and all he needed to do was stick his racket out for an easy volley. Then looking at Federer in his prime years against Rafa, he was so stubborn about that very same thing. He would cover the down the line shot time and time allowing Rafa to pass cross court pretty easily.

Just having good volleys is only a very small aspect towards being a great net player. Look at Ivanisevic, he had very mediocre volleys, regardless of whether you think how much surfaces/technology have changed, he was still a top player. Hitting the right serve, knowing where to move, being confident with the play and take the right percentages are much more important factors in being a great net player that players these days don't have.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
they're not training it less. They're using it less. And they're not using it less Because their tactics is by default baseline tennis...their tactics is by default baseline tennis Because they can't be successful going at the net too often.
This.

There are days--weeks even--dedicated to volleys at various clinics and camps here, you just won't see it incorporated in the game as much because it's no longer the most proven tactic in tennis.

People always talk about racquet technology and surface changes, but they forget about the guys holding the racquet and the modernization of the game. For all anyone cay say about racquet technology speeding up, remember how athletically sharp these guys have to be to cope with that. Moreover, and more importantly, the mechanics of a stroke aren't what they are even some decades ago.

The predominant ball from the baseline is no longer a flat one, the type easiest for an astute volleyer to redirect. Topspin has really become a staple in the game, meaning not only the speed, but the weight of today's average shots has increased. Volleys are made more difficult to accomplish because of how well guys can arch shots at such speeds and trajectories that wren't as much of an issue before.

Just remember even Sampras' comments about Hewitt being a victim of his time. The greatest serve and volleyer of his time said Lleyton had the game to largely break that style of tennis, but was unfortunate to come on to the scene when the dynamics of the game had changed.

It's not a matter of lack of practice making for poor results, it's a matter of (mostly) poor results making for a lack of implementation.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:22 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
This.

There are days--weeks even--dedicated to volleys at various clinics and camps here, you just won't see it incorporated in the game as much because it's no longer the most proven tactic in tennis.

People always talk about racquet technology and surface changes, but they forget about the guys holding the racquet and the modernization of the game. For all anyone cay say about racquet technology speeding up, remember how athletically sharp these guys have to be to cope with that. Moreover, and more importantly, the mechanics of a stroke aren't what they are even some decades ago.

The predominant ball from the baseline is no longer a flat one, the type easiest for an astute volleyer to redirect. Topspin has really become a staple in the game, meaning not only the speed, but the weight of today's average shots has increased. Volleys are made more difficult to accomplish because of how well guys can arch shots at such speeds and trajectories that wren't as much of an issue before.

Just remember even Sampras' comments about Hewitt being a victim of his time. The greatest serve and volleyer of his time said Lleyton had the game to largely break that style of tennis, but was unfortunate to come on to the scene when the dynamics of the game had changed.

It's not a matter of lack of practice making for poor results, it's a matter of (mostly) poor results making for a lack of implementation.
Very good point and the bolded part is smth i haven't thought about and i find it very correct.

With top spin being the bread and butter in tennis nowadays, anyone could send back even the harder balls down in the volleying guy's socks, which makes volleys almost impossible to be winning the rally.

That's why a player would prefer to follow a solid approach shot, not directly at the net, but between the baseline and service line, because with a ground FH he can finish anykind of retrieved ball off, while at the net he might need to play a low volley, which usually means handing the point back.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:39 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

surprisingly enough, suicidal tactics don't really pay off.

Personally I think slow courts and improved racquet technology prevent this tactic, because it just doesn't work.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

3 things

1. slower courts-mostly HC-indoor,outdoors and grass, no carpet - you need better volley for winner shot than 10-15years ago and so on

2.racquet technology-some of those passing shots are so fast-strong - it is almost impossible to take control of such shot, when your opponents are blasting ,,bombs,, on you or left-right from you - also

3. training-confidence- call it how you want, simply most guys are not training enough volleying and they are not confident enough to do it, i mean for example you play QF of Master 1000 you need to make SF-you are top 30 guy, would you try go to the net when you are not used to it and are not sure what to do on the net? No you will stay on the baseline and either wait for error or good position to hit winner

Howewer i believe going to the net more often would be great choice, i think most players when goes to the net can hit good volley, in top 50 for example and it would be great to shorten rallies and change rhytm and make you more unpredictable - i am not saying about SV style - i think this is history, but more volleying would be great for players

Also one thing i don´t understand is why basically nobody is using drop shots more often- in this era with everoyne behind the baseline and expecting another shot far to corner and stay behind baseline drop shots are great choice, i mean if 2m+ tall guy like Janowicz can do it why other guys are not using it more frequently - i think similar case to volleys - they are not training it and are not confident enough to do it when it matters like facing BP or having BP and so on. I mean you don´t need to hit drop shot winner and play it perfectly it can ,,be lazy,, drop shot and still you can win point 80% of the time when you do it at good time.

Similarly with volleys you don´t need to have winning volley after great volley, just take your opponent outwide and cover the net and so on.

Last edited by romismak : 12-01-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Drop shot needs to be 80% perfect to have a winning possibility, all the rest is an invitation for the opponent.

The only way to raise the number of volleys is to play S&V and chip and charge actually, as the rest of the time you -

either hit winners following your good serve
either you are defending behind your return.

Players still do some 10-20 volleys in a 3 setter in average, so everything above this is either S&V or C&C.

Both are suicidal strategies and could be used once in a while to surprise the opponent.
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:20 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why players don't go to net more often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by romismak View Post
Also one thing i don´t understand is why basically nobody is using drop shots more often- in this era with everoyne behind the baseline and expecting another shot far to corner and stay behind baseline drop shots are great choice, i mean if 2m+ tall guy like Janowicz can do it why other guys are not using it more frequently - i think similar case to volleys - they are not training it and are not confident enough to do it when it matters like facing BP or having BP and so on. I mean you don´t need to hit drop shot winner and play it perfectly it can ,,be lazy,, drop shot and still you can win point 80% of the time when you do it at good time.
Dolgopolov use (or used) them a lot, and he's good at it, but in the end he couldn't bother even Troicki with that - check their last match (RG 2011), Viktor dropped only a set. Top guys probably wouldn't even lose a set.
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